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Author Topic: U-2 colours for URSS-H224 from I.D. Papanin rescue flight.  (Read 3898 times)
Javier Planells
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« on: October 24, 2016, 12:11:32 AM »

Hi folks!

Still with Kukuruznik fever over these premises, got to see some pictures on polarpost.ru about this plane (always wanted to build it) and need some expert advice from you guys.

Since the rescue took place in 1938, could the plane be painted in green "zashchitnyi" (Khaki pre '37 version) or AIIz on the upper surfaces? About the undersurfaces, what colour should they be? Light Blue-grey, AII Sv.gol light blue or AII Al. aluminium?

From careful study I guess any of those greens would do. But the undersurfaces seem to be aluminium, when compared to the engine's winter bonnet.

Any help would be priceless.

Have a great week start.
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AlexGRD
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2016, 03:09:38 PM »

Too difficult to say firm but these airplanes were transported on special rescue ships and both Sha-2 and U-2SP are looking painted by the same colors.
Quite possible it could be in dark red also because the guy with meteo-baloon is 100% in winter suit ("vatnik") in khaki-green.
The unpainted winter bonnet for M-11 may be simply installed later on board of the transport ship.




« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 08:19:42 AM by AlexGRD » Logged
Psy06
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2016, 08:28:45 PM »

Quite possible it could be in dark red also because the guy with meteo-baloon is 100% in winter suit ("vatnik") in khaki-green.
In my entire life, I have never seen a green padded jacket, only gray. My wife, too. I think you are very much mistaken Smiley
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KL
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2016, 02:31:59 AM »


Quite possible it could be in dark red also because the guy with meteo-baloon is 100% in winter suit ("vatnik") in khaki-green.



Red would be unusual for pre-war Polar Aviation. In 1930es yellow and orange were considered as high visibility colours, not red.

Regarding the "vatnik" (aka ""vatnaya kurtka" or "telogreika"), wikipedia says "tsvet haki" and photo shows something brown, not green, not gray...




H-224 photo from the web:



Regards,
KL
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Javier Planells
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2016, 06:02:47 AM »

Tjank you guys for your feedback.

The pictures Alex posted are very rich on  details. A red SP would look nice! Coming back to colours, I recall the polar exploration ARK-5s being painted bright red and a colour profile on the internet depicting H-224 in red uppers and light blue undersurfaces. But South Front Decals state it was green over blue so I'm amiss here.

KL, since the rescue took place in 1938, could the plane be painted in green "zashchitnyi" (Khaki pre '37 version) or AIIz on the upper surfaces? About the undersurfaces, what colour should they be? Light Blue-grey, AII Sv.gol light blue or AII Al. aluminum.

From careful study I guess any of those greens would do. But the undersurfaces seem to be aluminium, when compared to the bonnet.

II' really appreciate your comments on the matter.
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AlexGRD
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2016, 08:03:41 AM »

The vatnik overcoat when brand new is really green-khaki. But after some use became brownish-grey. Existed also in blue but for early 30ths it was for sure green and the polar expedition for sure has received all brand-new equipment before to move.
I mention this because the contrast  between airplane's top color and coat are too contrasted that between vatnik color and possibly AIIz (another suggestion is that the airplane on ice is inside shadow created by the vessel). But if to see last picture the helm is normally in army 4BO color not too far of AIIz that is evident in contrast. At the same time it will look not so contrasty like on airplane's picture looking darker.




Regarding red/blue style an alternate mixt blue AIIg with AIIalu was also possible. Like it was made by Gilles Mazon on his nice full scratched ARK-5
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=94811&start=125
 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 10:54:15 AM by AlexGRD » Logged
AlexGRD
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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2016, 10:21:39 AM »

Another pics du H-224 less contrasted but I have impression that the light color under lower wing is a simple reflect from brightning snow. There the plane is looking upper overal AIIz
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 10:24:38 AM by AlexGRD » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2016, 01:53:14 PM »

Hi,
in my idea, this image shows the division line between the upper and lower surfaces of the wings.

my idea is that the plane was in khaki green and some shade of light blue, but it could also be that there are red parts that don't contrast with green in a bw photo. There is one photo of a polar ARK-5 that shows high visibility bands, probably red, on its upper surface, while most photos show it with an uniform dark uppersurface.
Regards
Massimo

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KL
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2016, 04:59:53 PM »

IMHO, AKAN's names for pre-war aviation colours are not historically accurate, they are somewhat misleading and they are now creating confusion.

From what I have seen so far, the term "khaki" was never used in manuals and other technical literature to describe colour of the aircraft upper surfaces. Instead, it was always "zashchitniy"... and from fragments preserved in museums and from period paintings we know for sure that military planes where dark olive green in 1930es.


"Khaki" was usually used to describe colour of the RKKA uniform. In 1920-es and 1930-es Red Army uniforms where brown and brown-green.

In short; 1920-es and 1930-es aviation "zashchitniy" was dark olive green, there was no aviation "khaki" colour.  "Khaki" was the brown or brown-green colour of the RKKA uniform.

Hope this helps,
KL
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Johann
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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2016, 08:06:26 PM »

If a dispute about color aircraft it is 90% dark red. Before 39 г entire polar aviation crumble it in dark red. After we began to use orange. If the dispute is of a padded jacket were, 5-6 colors. including very dark gray and blue.)

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KL
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2016, 06:56:52 PM »

... A red SP would look nice! Coming back to colours, I recall the polar exploration ARK-5s being painted bright red and a colour profile on the internet depicting H-224 in red uppers and light blue undersurfaces.


... There is one photo of a polar ARK-5 that shows high visibility bands, probably red, on its upper surface, while most photos show it with an uniform dark uppersurface.


ARK-5 colour scheme is well documented - it's colours were mentioned in period newspapers and in books dealing with 1936 expedition.  Vodopianov, expedition leader provides a lot of  details:

Нижняя часть крыльев и фюзеляж были выкрашены в голубой цвет, а бока фюзеляжа и верх крыльев ? в зеленый. Сверху, покрывая почти всю плоскость крыльев, весь верх фюзеляжа и значительную часть хвостового оперения, шла широкая яркокрасная полоса. Ее вид напоминал мне осторожного и расчетливого Бассейна. Это по его инициативе на самолетах появилась ужаснувшая привычных к стандартной раскраске заводских инженеров красная полоса. Но их эстетический ?ужас? ничего не стоил в глазах Бассейна, не один раз испытавшего настоящий ужас приближения голодной смерти на вынужденной посадке; ужас, который охватывает человека, пробывшего не одни сутки без крошки хлеба на тридцатипятиградусном морозе, когда до жути отчетливо чувствуешь, как буквально стынет кровь в жилах и остро ломит промерзшие кости. Да, да... не руки, не ноги, а именно ? кости... И он настоял на своем проекте раскраски, аргументируя просто и убедительно: в случае вынужденной посадки красный самолет легко будет обнаружить с воздуха на белоснежном покрове Арктики.

ARK-5's undersurfaces were light blue, fuselage sides and wing upper surfaces were green.  There was a wide bright red line which covered almost entire surface of the top wing, entire fuselage top and significant part of the horizontal tail surfaces.  Painting of this line was an initiative of Vodopianow's mechanic Bassein, he argued that planes painted this way would be easy to spot in case of forced landing on snow covered Arctic.

Below is accurate reconstruction of ARK-5 colour scheme: 



ARK-5 colour scheme was unique, non-standard.  Other Polar Aviation planes were either yellow, yellow/blue or they continued to fly in their original VVS or GVF colours.

HTH,
KL
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AlexGRD
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2016, 11:07:29 PM »

Not so easy Konstantin in respect of ARK-5 colors.
You know perfectly that it was two aircrafts during Franz-Josef land expedition in March, 1936 :  H-127 of M.Vodopiyanov and  H-128 of  V.Makhotkin.
According other witness one aircraft was overal red/blue and the second green/blue. And the available pictures doesn't prouve red-green painting scheme.
And the picture from the publication that you have posted contain another red-blue scheme of the H-127.
So this is one of the few mistery of the Soviet Polar aviation.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 11:09:56 PM by AlexGRD » Logged
KL
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2016, 08:16:08 AM »

Hi Alex,  Smiley



on the photo above, both planes look like they were painted in same dark colour (dark green according to Vodopianovs description).  Fuselage top of N-127 in foreground could be different colour, i.e. red according to Vodopianov...

According other witness one aircraft was overal red/blue and the second green/blue.

I have checked both N-127 and N-128 threads at "Polarnaya Pochta" forum and I can't find any hard evidence for overall red scheme on N-127  Huh  Who is the witness you mentioned in your post?
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Johann
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2016, 08:51:03 AM »

In cases of aircraft ARC-5 H-127, H-128, if for a moment the dispute otvletsya color of the upper surface, in color difference was - 127 was painted entirely in a single color, and 128 had a blue bottom




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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2016, 11:58:41 AM »

Hi,
here is a photo that seems to confirm the double shade of the uppersurface of the wing of H-127.


Here below I think to see a dark line on the leading edge that could be, as on the U-2, a part of the dark uppersurface exposed to the same shadow condition of the undersurface, that has to be lighter and appears dark only because of shadow. Besides the numbers on the lower wing surface are painted black, not white as on the top, and this suggests a light background.



Lower surface of 128 is surely light, but the lower part of stabilizers and elevators looks of the same dark color of the upper surfaces.


Regards
Massimo
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