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Author Topic: Page on La-7s  (Read 13598 times)
66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2017, 02:58:40 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I have got intersting inputs from Czech modelforum.cz at http://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=875&t=99601&start=30#p1978958

1.) Check, please, unit identification & fast recognition elements at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/32giap/32giap.htm:

Your La-7 no. "66 of an unit that could be 32 giap, or another regiment belonging to the same 3 giad"


vs.


2.) Czechoslovak La-7 no. 06

vs.

Whole metal panel beneath cockpit is repainted with gray color different from both AMT-11 and AMT-12. That dark area on the top is shadow.
 
3.) Czechoslovak La-7 White 77 (ex 60, ex SU-60), s/n: 45210860 at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/la-7-postwar.htm

It is this La-7, that bw photo is from Prague, 1966 and shows restored Lavochka in green and brown camouflage, as they had thought that was correct WWII appearence. Since that time she was repainted, at least partially, several times:

However, there is discussion at modelforum.cz wheter serial 45210860 is correct/original. Engine no. 82132260 should belong to serial 45210712 (could be replaced?) and that during renovation they reportedly found board number digit 7 and upper part of either 3 or 7 and therefore they painted 77. So, we will see the outcome.

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 03:10:04 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2017, 09:25:47 PM »

Hi Misos,

thank you for these informations.

About planes of 32 giap: I am aware of the difference on the ends of the lines. Unfortunately, there is not any alternative known. These planes are described as of 32 giap on the profiles of Aviakollectsia too.
Should an alternative identification emerge, I'll take it into account.

Thank you for the excellent photo of plane 39, this could be utilized for a profile. Do you know the original source?
Could you translate the caption, please?

The side panel of 06 seems really repainted. I'll correct it.

Thank you also for your warning about the plane 77 in Prague, I hadn't recognized it. On the photo, it looks painted with an uniform color.
Could the brown bands have been painted after this image was shot?

Regards
Massimo


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KL
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2017, 02:57:26 AM »

Some interesting info about the eagle emblem for Misos:

Eagle emblem appeared on all food products that were supplied through lend-lease program to allied countries during WWII.  So it wasn't only on pork cans supplied to Soviet Union...
From http://www.atlas-repropaperwork.com/lend-lease-insignia/category/


“An Identification Mark For United States Food.
Walt Disney (right) presents to Secretary of Agriculture Claude R. Wickard, an emblem he designed for use on the labels and markings of containers to identify anywhere in the world the food they hold. In this emblem, the United States Eagle protects a convoy from an Axis bomber and four stars symbolize the four freedoms – of expression, of religion, from fear, from want.”






In December 1941, Disney artist Hank Porter designed an emblem for the Department of Agriculture. A January 28, 1942 press release issued by the Federal government read in part:

“The American eagle, poised on guard above a cargo ship is the design…which will be available to identify U.S. food products wherever they are sent throughout the world.
The emblem was presented to Secretary Claude R. Wickard…in recognition of the vital part U.S. food is playing on both the home and foreign war fronts of the world. The new emblem, which will be available for voluntary use by packers, is expected to become a familiar part of the labels for food containers."

It looks that colour version of the emblem had red sky, like here:



it is probable that emblem on Sirotin's Airacobra olso had red sky, not blue!!!



check photos; colour of the emblem is the same as colour of victory stars.

Regards,
KL
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warhawk
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2017, 02:06:10 PM »

I have recently seen the page on La-7s was added to the index, a very welcome addition IMHO.
I would like to suggest tackling one neglected bird - Golubov's three-gun "white 33" from 4th GIAP

Now, as we know from two photos available so far, already mentioned here,
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=652.msg3109#msg3109

We can certainly assume it is not a "33" as the second digit is rounded at the top.
It could really be any combination of numbers in this font (one with flat top, other with round - 30, 70, 38, 78. etc...)

I plan to do make an educated guedd and build it as "30", so I would like to hear other opinions on this.
Also, Black outline to the numbers - is there any proof for this?
It would certainly be the only machine so far to use black...
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2017, 03:34:09 PM »

Hi,
you have rightly pointed on the fact that there is not photographic evidence of plane 33 of Golubev, for what I know.
One could make a profile or a model of some plane 33 and, if it was not the one of Golubev, it could be of one of his fellows.
Unfortunately there is not a sure evidence that the emblem on the tail was as drawn on profiles of MBI, an oblique white cap, or a white rudder as La-5FN of the same unit. http://wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/335/pics/1_21.jpg
Only the white spinner meets consensus.
Besides, 3-guns planes were produced in small number, and nearly all the known photos are shot after the war; so, a strong evidence is needed to represent his plane with 3 guns.
About the outline of the number: I see  on the photo you've linked that the outlines of the first number are two, an external light one (red or medium blue) and an inner one (almost surely black).  This is not a factory standard, it was done in the unit.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x31/warhawk_photo/razno/th_Golubov.jpg
I suggest to choose a better documented plane for your project; as an alternative, you could follow an existing profile as it is, knowing that it's very difficult to demonstrate that it is wrong.
Regards
Massimo
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warhawk
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2017, 09:06:50 PM »

I see  on the photo you've linked that the outlines of the first number are two, an external light one (red or medium blue) and an inner one (almost surely black).

Wow, great ability to spot the details!
It was probably a sloppy job over a standard blue outline.
But if I represent it as such on a model, everyone will think there was an error with the decals  Tongue

I suggest to choose a better documented plane for your project

Thanks for a suggestion, but a bug has nested in my head on doing this exact machine...
If I eventually do choose another, it will definitely be another "three-gunner"

Aleksandar
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2017, 09:55:55 PM »

Hi Aleksandar,
Are we sure that the plane in the photo is a La-7?
Regards
Massimo
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warhawk
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2017, 10:35:51 PM »

If You take a look at my link, You will see two photos - one with him in front of a Lavochkin,
and the other one - from Osprey's "Aircraft of the Aces 056 LaGG & Lavochkin Aces of World War 2" - which states that it is Golubov's La-7 being serviced:
Are these two photos related or taken at the same time? I do not have that information...
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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2017, 06:34:24 AM »

Hi Massimo,
...plane 39, this could be utilized for a profile. Do you know the original source?
Could you translate the caption, please?

The boy "Son of the regiment" Michail from 434 iap (32 giap) Michail standing by the aircraft La-5 of Division commander - colonnel V.I. Stalin, Berlin 1945.
I do not know original source of this photo, it was posted at modelforum.cz.

..plane 77 in Prague...looks painted with an uniform color.
Could the brown bands have been painted after this image was shot?
According to the some/latest info that plane was painted with the post war solid green color during restoration and after aproximately 2 months brown areas were added.

Hi KL,
Some interesting info about the eagle emblem for Misos...
Thank you for a very interesting info (Disney Corp. is author of the logo for L-L food deliveries) and photos.

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 08:56:29 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2017, 07:08:02 AM »

Hi Misos, thank you.
The translation is a bit difficult to understand. Is Mikhail the son of the colonel Stalin?
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2017, 08:58:04 AM »

Hi Massimo,
I have re-formulated it. However, IMHO it is not La-5 but La-7.
Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2017, 01:07:13 PM »

Hi Misos,
I agree, certainly a La-7.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2017, 08:44:50 PM »

hi all,
i made some updates adding some profiles:
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/32giap/32giap.htm
32 giap
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/9giap/9giap.htm
9 giap
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/178giap/178giap.htm
178 giap.

Please, let me know your comments.

Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2017, 09:29:49 PM »

Hi Aleksandar
Quote
If You take a look at my link, You will see two photos - one with him in front of a Lavochkin,
and the other one - from Osprey's "Aircraft of the Aces 056 LaGG & Lavochkin Aces of World War 2" - which states that it is Golubov's La-7 being serviced:
Are these two photos related or taken at the same time? I do not have that information...
you can find a less cropped version of this image at
http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AV/AV12-4/17-1.jpg
Here you can see that not only the upper part of the rudder is painted white, but the part of fin over the red star.
This could justify the suspect that the mark on the tail resembled to that of 156 giap, that resembles to that of the mysterious plane 10
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/10whitenose.htm

Of course, it could also be that all the rudder is white, or that the white area ends in other ways, but it is a point for the profile ov Vestsik.
I think also to see a vague dark blotch in the same position where plane 10 has a small anchor; this is another point for a similarity between these planes.

Another thing: Red Stars of Geust says that theplane behind Golubev is a La-5FN, not a La-7. The wire aerial shown in the photo looks unusual for a La-7.
So, this photo doesn't prove that the number 33 is wrong. If Vestsik obtained the 33 from some memoirs, it could be that his profile is fundamentally right, apart for the lack of the anchor and the leading edge. Maybe it hadn't the black outline around its number.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 10:03:43 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
warhawk
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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2017, 07:56:52 PM »

Thanks for a great explanation. So it's not a La-7 at all, let alone a late-war three-gunner!
Oh well, "back to the OKB-mobile" in search of another scheme...
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