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Author Topic: VVS colors before 1937  (Read 1774 times)
xan
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« on: April 24, 2017, 02:14:30 PM »

Hello,
My next project is an I-16 type 4, at 1/48!

This is thanks to a Spanish friend we did all a transkit starting from a Eduard Type 10!

so I would like to talk (again I know) about the 1925/1937 VVS colors.

Particulary about the green color.

When i did a spanish type5 we share information in this forum.

at the moment what I know about this green is that:

official document just talk about green color nothing more.

Konstantin told me (if I am not wrong), that it 's admit this green was close to German RLM 83

for comparaison here are the gunze H423 for RLM 83 on spanish I-16, and akan AII green in the Chinese I-16



Konstantin or anyone else could tell me in why people think this green was close to RLM 83 ? Does Orlov say something about that?



this is given as a I-16' fabric part found in Spain.



Could it be a type 5 piece? cause the color is quite close to RML 83...

Second point in the 1934/1937 phase, cowling were genrally paint in black (RZ natacha, I-15, I-16, first mig-3)
was it systematic ?
After 1937 the cowling were no longer painted in black.

I mean if the cowler is painted in green as the fuselage, can we deduce the plain have been painted after 1937 and so the green is the new AII green color?

Last think, Akhanine who is knowed to be quite accurate for VVS color, only proposes one green for 1925/1941 period in his paint set and so does not make diference between the two greens...




Xan
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 02:19:57 PM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2017, 07:08:36 AM »

Hi,
I don't understand the thing about MiG-3s with black nose.

About the colors of Akanihin: the pre-1937 (or 1936?) shade was based on a piece of TB-3 that showed two greens: the lower one was a sort of olive green, the upper one was more dark green and identified as 3B.
Now, it seems that the first color has been removed from the catalogue. Perhaps he wasn't sure about the original look or that it was utilized on any pre-1937 plane.
If I remember well, the piece of skin of the Spanish I-16 showed two layers of paint, and the underlying was the more olive one.

I think that the set of prewar colors is very reductive. The blue (or grey-blue?) utilized before the silver/grey finish appeared markedly darker than AE-9 on bw photos, and probably it was darker than AII light blue.
Another piece of the same I-16 showed three shades of blue; perhaps this color could be identified with the darker one, but I haven't the piece in my hands to say this for sure.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2017, 08:39:27 AM »

Hello Massimo, thanks for your answer!

Hi, I don't understand the thing about MiG-3s with black nose.
i had in memory some black noises in mig-3 as this model wich can perfectely be an bad interpretation.

Anyway it does not have any sense , the mig-3 appears in 1940 after the period we study...
What realy interest me is when the noises were painted in black.
Do you agree it was before 1937? or do you think they were painted too after? Do you think before 1937 blach cowling were systematic?
So a noise painted in black could be without any doubt a way to determinate if the plane was painted before 1937 , and so deduce that the green is the old green and not AII green?

About the colors of Akanihin: the pre-1937 (or 1936?) shade was based on a piece of TB-3 that showed two greens: the lower one was a sort of olive green, the upper one was more dark green and identified as 3B.
Very interesting! have you any pic of the TB-3 part? Do you know were it can be seen?

If I remember well, the piece of skin of the Spanish I-16 showed two layers of paint, and the underlying was the more olive one.
Another piece of the same I-16 showed three shades of blue; perhaps this color could be identified with the darker one
is there any other piece of upper surface?
I know the blue piece, i don't find it right know but i see it a lot of time...

I think that the set of prewar colors is very reductive.
I agree with you, I show it just to show AnaKhinine propose just AII green in his set...

it seems that the first color has been removed from the catalogue. Perhaps he wasn't sure about the original look or that it was utilized on any pre-1937 plane.
Do you know the reference of this paint, to try to find it?

Xan

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2017, 11:02:40 AM »

Hi Xan,
here is the page, you certainly already know it.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/before1937/before1937.html

Here you can see the piece of TB-3.


Here you can see the piece of I-16 showing 2 or 3 layers of blue.


My impression is that one of them, when new, could have been similar to AMT-7 or an half way between AII and AMT-7; it has to be a relatively dark color to match the available bw photos. 
Note, anyway, that Spanish sources have identified it as Humbrol 65 that is lighter and more greenish of my idea.
It would be good to see it to determine if it is the overlying or underlying layer; if it is overlying, it could be a Spanish paint.

Regards
Massimo


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xan
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2017, 03:16:38 PM »

About the I-16 pieces I don't understand very well how can we says those pieces belong to an I-16 if there was no more pieces...
for the blue part, I'am not sure at all there was two blues. dark or light color can be the undercoatlayer. it often hapen in a car paint for exemple to see different tones of paint in an old car.

The TB-3 would be 3B green, so it does not help us to determinate first VVS green...

what is your feeling about black painted cowling?

Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2017, 08:28:11 PM »

Probably it was found aside other pieces of I-16 in a crash site.

The sheet of metal of TB-3 has two layers of paint and both are visible, even if scarcely contrasting, corresponding to old AKAN 363 and 370.  I am not aware of further chips of older paints.

About black painted cowling: I would look to photos of the choosen plane, they are clearly recognizable on bw photos.
Regards
Massimo
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