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Author Topic: Hurricane IIc in VVS  (Read 28376 times)
marluc
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2008, 07:57:05 PM »

Hello DGM:

by the time the IIC was in production 'Day Fighter Finish' (pattern A) was the norm ,so you know what the pattern  and we can make a fair guess as to the colors.
[/color]
I?ve checked with Modellers Datafile (SAMI Publications) book about the Hawker Hurricane and this MkIIC has a pattern A as you mentioned but with inverted colours.The Hurris that were sent to the desert had this feature.This is what I see in the photo:

 

the fuselage seems to show part of the RAF serial number and to me seems to end in ...59
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I think it could be ...69 too.


I can't tell if there is or was a tail-band - maybe it didn't have one.
as for the fuselage star I would say 'can't tell because some guy's head is is in the way' Smiley Cheesy
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It looks like it has no tail band and that the RAF roundel (and its overpainting) should be behind the head of the soviet guy.The overpainting on the fuselage side is too close to the serial number so it could be covering a RAF squadron code.Probably the MkIIC had a previous RAF service.
Thanks Paul for your contribution.Best regards:

Martin
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 09:12:07 PM by marluc » Logged
Dark Green Man
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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2008, 05:53:22 AM »


the possibility that this aircraft saw service in the Mediterranean has also occurred to me.
in that case the colors would be Middlestone,Dark Earth and Azure Blue and would also explain why it has no tail-band.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2008, 09:33:51 PM »

Hi, Smiley
a tropical camo scheme could be a point of high interest for this plane. Unfortunately, probably there is a number on the fuselage, hidden by the man. Without knowing this number, one can't make any modellistic use of this interesting image, in my idea. Undecided
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2008, 07:25:41 PM »

Hello Massimo:
Hi, Smiley
Without knowing this number, one can't make any modellistic use of this interesting image, in my idea.
I think so;and the serial number is "incomplete" too.
Best regards:

Martin
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2010, 08:33:55 PM »

It would be surprising if this Mk.IIc had seen previous service, as I understand these were delivered direct to Russia by the Northern Route (ie ships).  I know that some of the Spitfires were delivered via the Southern Route, but haven't heard the same about Hurricanes.  An aircraft in the ME would not have been returned to the UK.  I understood that only some of the early deliveries had seen previous service, as Mk.1s before being converted to Mk.IIs and then allocated to Russia.

I suspect that there is little coverage of the Mk.IIc because they will have gone either to training units or to the PVO.  The four Hispano cannon were very heavy, and adversely affected the Hurricane's handling and performance.  On low octane Russian fuel they would have been unsuitable for front-line combat by the time of their arrival.
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marluc
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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2010, 09:23:46 PM »

Hello Graham:

I suspect that there is little coverage of the Mk.IIc because they will have gone either to training units or to the PVO.  The four Hispano cannon were very heavy, and adversely affected the Hurricane's handling and performance.  On low octane Russian fuel they would have been unsuitable for front-line combat by the time of their arrival.

Thanks for sharing with us your point of view regarding this topic.I think that the low number of cannon armed Hurricanes was also a reason for the lack of photos.And what about the supply of 20 mmm amunition for the Hispano cannons? The lack of it could be another reason.
Greetings.

Martin
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2010, 12:47:53 PM »

Is it possible that the Mk.IIc were converted to Russian armament in the same way that many Mk.IIbs were? So we could be seeing them in photographs without realising it?
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marluc
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2010, 06:45:59 PM »

I?m no expert,but as far as I know,there?s no record of this kind of conversion to a MkIIc.Perhaps,the soviets replaced the Hispano cannons with its own 20 mm weapons,but this is pure speculation.

This is a photo of what looks like a soviet MkIIc;at least to me,the position of the covers are like the ones fitted to the cannon armed Hurricane.



Please,let me know what you think of this image.Greetings.

Martin
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2010, 01:06:48 AM »


I have also thought of the possibility of re-arming it with the 20 mm ShVAK.
those do look like ShVAK rounds on the wing to me.
but, I am no expert in the appearance of British 20 mm rounds.
what say ye?
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marluc
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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2010, 02:53:10 AM »

Hello DGM:

I really don?t know if the amunition is british or soviet,but it can be seen what looks like the drum of a Hispano cannon behind the left hand of the first armourer.Greetings.

Martin
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2010, 05:40:11 PM »

I?m no expert,but as far as I know,there?s no record of this kind of conversion to a MkIIc.Perhaps,the soviets replaced the Hispano cannons with its own 20 mm weapons,but this is pure speculation.

This is a photo of what looks like a soviet MkIIc;at least to me,the position of the covers are like the ones fitted to the cannon armed Hurricane.



Please,let me know what you think of this image.Greetings.

Martin

HI, yes, that is  IIC, the gun access panels are the right shape. (rectangular)
The IIC did not use drum magazines, they are belt fed, as per the photo. The circular parts are the shell feeds, which need the wing bulges to cover them.
this photo is in the AJ press "Hurricane in foreign service" captioned.
"sergeants Saplin and Thubanienko  loading 20 mm magazines, 2nd GSAP, 1942"

Anyone know more on the 2nd GSAP?

The AJ press reproduction  shows one unusual detail, that the area behind the cockpit appears quite a lot lighter in tone than the nose panels, compare the lighter camo colour on wing and nose to area with the handhold. 

as for other comments
"Is it possible that the Mk.IIc were converted to Russian armament in the same way that many Mk.IIbs were? So we could be seeing them in photographs without realising it?"

Possibly Graham, but I would presume that a IIC coverted to Soviet weapons would have had ShVAK cannon refitted in stead of the Oerlikons, but to fit the VVS Hurricane  standard (1x 20mmShVAK 1 x UBT 12.7) would be quite easy in the 2 cannon wing. 
note, UBT is the Turret specification of the UB gun,
"Continued development resulted in the improved UB which came in three versions: UBK (Kрыльевой, Krylyevoi, for the wings), UBS (Синхронный, Sinkhronniy, Synchronized), and UBT (Турельный, Turelniy, for the turret), with UBS and UBK charged by compressed air."
the next point

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berezin_UB

also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShVAK_cannon
there are some specs for the cannon round

note Hispano 20 mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano_20_mm_cannon (ignoring the Hurricane IV with 20mm guns...)
"The Hispano fired a 130 g (4.586 oz) 20 mm diameter projectile from a 110 mm (4.331 in) long casing, the whole round weighing 257 g (9.065 oz).[5]  Length of the projectiles vary with type, but are set to variable depth in the casing to produce a total length of 184 mm (7.244 in) regardless of projectile type"


"I have also thought of the possibility of re-arming it with the 20 mm ShVAK.
those do look like ShVAK rounds on the wing to me.
but, I am no expert in the appearance of British 20 mm rounds.
what say ye?"

Also depends on the specification of ShVAK rounds, it might be that it would be possible to use ShVAK rounds in the Hispano, or with minor modifications?   I don't know enough about this, but some links above.

It is quite possible that a IIC regunned with ShVAK cannons would be almost identical visually if you could not the see the ends of the barrels.

these may prove of some use, I'll post the links separately as well. Note that wiki gives lengths, so it is possible to get an idea of  size / scale

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/yuri_pasholok/shkas_aircraft_machinegun/

http://www.primeportal.net/armory/yuri_pasholok/shvak_12.7mm_aircraft_mg/

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/yuri_pasholok/shvak_20mm_aircraft_cannon/

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/yuri_pasholok/ub_aircraft_machinegun/

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/yuri_pasholok/ubt_aircraft_machinegun/

more soon, as both Hurricanes and VVS are areas of special interest to me.
T



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Troy Smith
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2010, 06:24:14 PM »

Next

according to this site http://members.madasafish.com/~d_hodgkinson/hawker-guide-RW.htm

"Russia (Moscow?)- Hurricane ? ?BM959? One or even two Hurricanes were once at the Moscow Museum - are there any there now - is one of them at Revda?

Russia (Revda) - Hurricane IIc ? ?BM959? Unveiled as a war memorial at Revda, 200 miles from Murmansk in northern Russia on 1st. September 1989. The aircraft had been recovered from a crash site near Lov Ozero on the Kola Peninsula, renovated and placed on a concrete plinth with the inscription ?To the Fighting Brotherhood of the Allies in the struggle against Fascism during WWII and in the memory of the pilots who did not return from combat and who died in the tundra, mountains, lakes and swamps of the Russian North?. The lightly damaged but weather-beaten plane was discovered with a Merlin XX engine, four 20mm canon and a tropical filter. The photo is taken from ?Warbirds Worldwide? journal 30 of September 1994, which includes the story of the recovery of the aircraft.



I think I seen somewhere more pictures of this plane. Does anyone have the Warbirds Worldwide issue?  

As BM959 is the famous IIB white wolf/bort 60 shot down by the Finns more info on this airframe would be fascinating.
Problem with recovered Hurricanes, the fabric and wood tends to have rotted away....

more later
T

PS more searching turned up this,

http://forums.diecast-aviation.eu/showthread.php?t=7628&page=4

"According to Aeroplane, the aircraft is a IIB, possibly one of the 151 wing machines, but the Russians removed the MGs and replaced them with four cannons. Regrettably details of the changes made to accommodate them are not provided.

The photograph was taken by Yulian Konstantinov of The Bulgarian Society of Regional Cultural Science Arctic project. He also photographed the engine including the serial number (64307) so presumably he was close enough to get other details. "



Though these  look like IIC wings, I would guess the confusion is about re-gunned VVS Hurricane's.  the tail section looks like a replica. (note rudder shape)
Final point worth noting, is that the type of Wing, be it A, B, C or D, attach just outboard of the undercarriage, so a B wing could be replaced by a C wing quite easily.  
There are pics of VVS hurricanes showing mis matched replacement panels if you look.

I'll do more searching later.  
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 02:39:04 AM by Troy Smith » Logged
marluc
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2010, 06:46:01 AM »

Hello Troy:

Thanks for sharing this information.

The AJ press reproduction  shows one unusual detail, that the area behind the cockpit appears quite a lot lighter in tone than the nose panels, compare the lighter camo colour on wing and nose to area with the handhold.
 
It could be that the Ocean Grey was overpainted with white paint as a winter finish (at least,only on the fuselage).If you have ""Hurricane in foreign service",please take a look at picture #108,the Hurricane behind the pilot is a Mk.IIc with what looks like the Dark Green overpainted with white.Probably,these cannon armed belong to an IAP that painted their planes in a partial winter camouflage.

Quote from: Troy Smith

the tail section looks like a replica. (note rudder shape)
You?re right.Perhaps,it could be a recovered Mk.IIc with tropical filter and damaged tail section.Or,if it was one of 151 wing Mk.IIbs,the outer wings were replaced with Mk.IIcs external sections.I think
they tried to represent a well known soviet Hurricane,that?s why the wolf and the serial BM959 were painted on it.

I also have an special interest on Hurricanes in soviet service so I?ll folllow your research.Greetings.

Martin
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2010, 04:55:34 AM »

hi Martin

Hello Troy:

Thanks for sharing this information.

The AJ press reproduction  shows one unusual detail, that the area behind the cockpit appears quite a lot lighter in tone than the nose panels, compare the lighter camo colour on wing and nose to area with the handhold.
 

"It could be that the Ocean Grey was overpainted with white paint as a winter finish (at least,only on the fuselage).If you have ""Hurricane in foreign service",please take a look at picture #108,the Hurricane behind the pilot is a Mk.IIc with what looks like the Dark Green overpainted with white.Probably,these cannon armed belong to an IAP that painted their planes in a partial winter camouflage."

Glad you spotted this one,


Indeed a IIC, but look at the sky, deep blue, and the pilots uniform, looks at least warm!  It is a winter schme in spring it's remarkably pristine! 
I think this is a another desert finish plane, note how this looks like a factory applied paint job, not a roughly applied winter finish.
I did wonder if was in front of an RAF plane, but there looks to be a star painted on. 
note also same pilot, and I presume, plane. At first I thought of winter finish, but look at the minimal panel wear.

.  Note that in 1943 IIRC that Hurricane IICs were supplied to the Turkish Airforce from existing RAF middle east stocks.
So not a big jump to see them being supplied to the VVS and then being used in Southern Russia, there are exapmple so Luftwaffe Fw190's in Southern Russia in desert camo too.
One thing I have noticed about VVS photographs, is there are often multiples from the same photo shoot, (there are many exaples of a couple of related pictures I once posted pairs of in the ARC discssion on VVS camo)
I would presume this being the result of official war correspondent assignments. And note far less are private snapshots, due to lack of cameras and also a totalitarian regime strict censorship. An example of this is quoted in Red Stars 4, where it says that pictures of Spitfires from further back PVO units are comparatively rare as these were not so propaganda worthy. 
I will post more shots that i think are of importance or that may be of a sequence. I have noticed that too
often it's only the plane that is concentrated on, as opposed to the entire picture.   

so i wonder if this may be from the same sequence.


It also strikes me that i doubt if I have seen a total photos more than 50 individual Hurricanes in VVS service, our of nearly 3000 planes supplied, so it is difficult to make generalizations, except that RAF camo was retained, and that repainting was limited to removal of RAF markings, and repairs to the fabric covered parts of the airframe.
There are some examples of mismatched metal panels too.   More when I have time. But your pics of bort 92 are a good example, instead of extensive repainting, think mismatched nose and fuselage side panels, and fabric repairs on rear fuselage.  Standard practice was to dope new fabric over damage in the RAF, why would the VVS be different?   This does like quite extensive repairs.   It could be part of a sequencce of pics including

from "hurricane in Foreign service"
Note pic #109 of bort 14, note recovered front of fin.
pic #107, note mismatched wing!  and doped flare chute behind cockpit.  I though strikes me on these planes, perhaps they had extensive fabric damage delivery, rather than battle damage, would explain extensive recovering?

pic #101 note mismatched gun panels, and looks like it could be from same sequence as bort 14 in #109, note dusty background, and think like a photographer, getting a squadron setting out.
Possibly pic #91, note unusual tail and what looks like white prop blades!
Quote from: Troy Smith

the tail section looks like a replica. (note rudder shape)
Quote
You?re right.Perhaps,it could be a recovered Mk.IIc with tropical filter and damaged tail section.Or,if it was one of 151 wing Mk.IIbs,the outer wings were replaced with Mk.IIcs external sections.I think
they tried to represent a well known soviet Hurricane,that?s why the wolf and the serial BM959 were painted on it.

In the link to the thread i got the colour pic from it said
"How about this one then? OK, not completely white but white and "Tundra". It is displayed at Revda in the Kola Peninsula and painted as BM951 though that is not it's true identity. It is in the markings of Captain Yakovlenko who was shot down and killed in 1941. The scheme is based on photographs of similar Hurricanes.

(Info from Aeroplane 1997).

Several variations of the scheme appear on the Wings Pallette site."

which makes more sense. Anyone here know more about this plane?

No reply as yet about the details of VVS armament fit photos, but will post info when I get it.

it's very late here, time for bed.
cheers
Troy
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learstang
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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2010, 06:50:38 AM »

Nice information on the VVS Hurricanes, Troy!  Always nice to have someone who specialises on a particular VVS plane (my speciality is the IL-2 Shturmovik in case you need to know about that).  With so much misinformation and conflicting information about VVS planes, sometimes it's hard to be a generalist.  Maybe this is a bit off-topic, but since we're talking about the Hurricane - do you have any pictures of the two-seater courier/artillery spotter Hurricane?  That's one I've always fancied doing.

Regards,

Learstang
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