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Author Topic: Engine installation on the La.5 cf Fw.190  (Read 1900 times)
Graham Boak
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« on: December 04, 2017, 06:06:48 PM »

The installation of the ASh.82 follows the same basic principle as that of the Fw.190, namely in the clustering of the exhausts at the side of the fuselage in order to reduce the base drag inevitable when the diameter of the engine installation is wider than the fuselage.  This was a revolutionary approach, where other designers were going to fat fuselages and/or separate individual exhausts stacks to gain jet effect.  When were the Soviet design teams made aware of this new approach by Kurt Tank's team?  Lavochkin seem to have been impressively quick in getting this into production.
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han9
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2017, 07:31:23 PM »

I am not entirely sure it was a Lavochkin idea at all. Namely the ASh-82  / M-82 installation & forward fuselage design was worked out by Polikarpov and his team for the I 185 back in 1940  if I remember correctly (I am writing from memory) and passed on to Lavochkin when the I 185 was cancelled. 
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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2017, 08:53:29 PM »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_I-185:
A second prototype was completed at the end of 1940 with a 14-cylinder, 1,268 kW (1,700 hp) Shvetsov M-82A radial engine. The forward fuselage had to be redesigned to accommodate the slimmer engine and the armament was revised to three synchronized 20 mm (0.79 in) ShVAK cannon. The drawings for this engine installation was passed to Lavochkin and Yakovlev where they proved very useful in designing their own fighters using the M-82 engine, notably the Lavochkin La-5.
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Johann
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2017, 09:36:16 PM »

And what connection with the installation of the engine FV-190A and La-5 ??
FV-190A was planned initially for its engine, and La-5 from despair. Especially on La-5, the engine diameter is not much larger than the fuselage midship.
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Johann
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2017, 09:43:39 PM »

I am not entirely sure it was a Lavochkin idea at all. Namely the ASh-82  / M-82 installation & forward fuselage design was worked out by Polikarpov and his team for the I 185 back in 1940  if I remember correctly (I am writing from memory) and passed on to Lavochkin when the I 185 was cancelled. 
Not quite right. The 2nd prototype was with M-71.
I-185 with M-81 - was built as a temporary measure in anticipation of the M-90 serial engines, but it was with the M-81 that he went through military trials
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han9
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2017, 07:56:53 AM »

I suppose you are right.

However that is not the point or points I wanted to make.  My point is twofold: first of all the mounting of the radial engine and solutions to related problems were not really something Lavochkin ‘invented’ he rather got it from Polikarpov and the second, not explicitly stated before is that common problems require common solutions. The Germans and Soviets could and probably did arrive at the same or similar solution when faced with a similar problem quit independent from each other.
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Johann
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2017, 11:08:19 AM »

The refusal of use of M-105 is caused by his small draft for LAGG-3 and the big need for them for Yakovlev Design Bureau. And because Lavochkin's experimental design bureaus wanted is reorientated for release of Yaks. Lavochkin had only exit for preservation of the plants, in basic change of LAGG-3, installation of the new engine. The choice has fallen on perspective and new M82 which not that moment was unclaimed, but had all characteristics suitable under Lavochkin's plans. In 44 m to year Japanese had a similar problem (a difference only that allies have destroyed the plant on production of motors) there was so Ki-100, the successor of Ki-61... Whether Lavochkin had practices and materials from Polikarpov it is necessary only to guess... By the way there were attempts to install the new engine and on MiG-3, its analog but with the radial engine MiG-9. But for various reasons he hasn't gone to a series... Under M82 did and the Il-2 attack plane a series from nearly 50 cars has been released and transferred to troops.
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han9
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2017, 05:52:43 PM »

I have come more than once across the supposition that Polikarpov transferred his work on the I 158 in particular the engine fittings and forward fuselage to Lavochkin. But when looking for a source to back this up I came upon precisely the opposite!

Look at this quote from https://www.aviarmor.net/aww2/aircraft/ussr/i-185.htm

Легенда о том, что при разработке этого истребителя Поликарпову было приказано передать все материалы по установке двигателя М-82А, не выдерживают никакой критики. Разработка и изготовление прототипа ЛаГ-5 велись в начале 1942 года практически подпольно и Лавочкин на свой страх и риск представил его НКАП.

The myth, that while working on this fighter Polikarpov was ordered to transfer all materials about the installation of the aero-engine M-82A can not withstand any criticism. The work on and production of the LaG 5 prototype was at the beginning of 1942 practically undertaken in secret and Lavochkin presented it to the NKAP at his own risk. 
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Johann
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2017, 06:43:16 PM »

And I'm trying to understand what kind of connection between the developments Polikarpov and Lavochkin? We will set aside for a minute I-185 and LaG-5 (La-5)
But before the La-5, there were already attempts with a radial engine at LaGGe (few people remember or know about the Gu-82 project ... And in the latter cases, rumors have been circulating for a long time that Sukhov's design was used. Lavochkin was completely independent development, for all that he insisted on only original (not borrowed details). There is a legend that on the days before the show, they could not cope with the oil overheating in the radiator. And the factory has already brought parts from the Yak-s. And so, at night in secret, even from Lavochkin, an engineer and two workers put an oil radiator from Yak, than the position could be)))
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han9
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2017, 07:05:54 PM »

Apparently Lavochkin’s development was indeed independent. I do not know where the idea of connecting Lavochkin’s development with Polikarpov originated but it does circulate here and there.

Anyway a decent write up on the development of the La 5 (with the Gu being mentioned too) one can find here:

http://www.libma.ru/transport_i_aviacija/aviacija_i_vremja_2006_05/p3.php
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Johann
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2017, 07:29:12 PM »

Unfortunately this is some kind of article for children ... Too many inaccuracies and invented moments (((
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han9
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2017, 08:26:40 PM »

The article was originally published in Авиация и время 2006 05.

Since we are at it could you link a better source?



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Johann
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 08:45:52 PM »

Before Aviation and Time this article was originally in some Polish edition. And what exactly are you interested in aviation Lavochkin?

I would recommend - "La 5. Fighter." The Broken Luftwaffe Range "
Author: Yakubovich N.V.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 09:00:08 PM by Johann » Logged
han9
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2017, 09:06:07 PM »

You mean Н. В. Якубович ИСТРЕБИТЕЛЬ ЛА-5 Сломавший хребет Люфтваффе https://coollib.com/b/269528/read

Thx for the hint, will have to read it.     
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Johann
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2017, 10:07:51 PM »

Yes it's she
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