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Author Topic: Czech B-71 camouflage  (Read 2695 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: December 17, 2017, 10:24:20 AM »

Hi all,
Tapani is working on a page on SB and on the Czech-built B-71, employed by Germans and Bulgarians too.
Now, there is a drawing published on Letectvi kosmonautika of 1980:



It seems a beautiful drawing, but there is a problem: while all profiles and top drawings of B-71 conform to it, there is not one photo of this type that resembles to this.
All photos suggest the existance of a standard camo pattern, that doesn't fit at all with the drawing.

Can anyone make some light on this?
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2017, 02:56:28 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I have found this photo:

Note incorrect/reversed position of the red and white (white is closer to the fuselage) color on the Czechosloval markiing - it was typical for the 71. letka (71st Squadron).




From http://www.cs-letectvi.cz/letadla/avia-b-71 schema drawn according to the factory documentation, where "H" is Brown, "SZ" is Dirty (Dark) green and "ZS" is greygreen.




Here are recommended colors:



They were used also by Slovak Air Arms (make also this one, please  Wink):

Hope it helps.
Regards,
   66misos

« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 03:04:50 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2017, 08:15:43 PM »

Hi Misos,
thank you for the inputs, perhaps I've understood the problem.
If we suppose that the dirty green is the light color, and the grey-green the darker one, then we have something that has some resemblance with what we see on photos.


I'll write to Tapani to check these sketches.
Any ideas about the colors written on the sketch? Could them be the same utilized for MiGs and Sukhois in the '80s?
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2017, 09:30:46 PM »

Hi Massimo,
those colors were prewar Czechoslovak paints. Not utilized for MiGs and Sukhois in the '80s.
As I wrote "H" is Brown, "SZ" is Dirty (Dark) green and "ZS" is greygreen.
Exact description on your scetches:
 - H = zemite hneda = earth brown,
 - SZ = spinava zelena = dirty green,
 - ZS = zelena seda = green grey,
 - MS = puvodni modroseda = original bluegrey
It is intersting that on all profiles and kit painting instruction dirty green is dark and green grey is light, but on the photo it really looks like dirty green is light and grey green is dark. Huh
Only side-view profile of Slovakian B.71 (the one with wide yellow band around mid fuselage) seems to be drawn correctly, while 4-view of the Slovakiab B.71 has also reversed dirty green and green grey. And sideview profile of the Slovakian B.71 has engine cowling painted exactly like on the big left-side photo, not like on the scetch of the painting instruction.

Here is captured German B.71 in (seems to be) oroginal Czechoslovak camouflage - SZ (spinava zelena) e.g. Dirty Green is represented by lighter color than Green Grey (ZS):







Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 09:36:07 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2017, 11:07:06 AM »

Hi Misos,

original bluegrey... so, the planes were painted in bluegrey before being camouflaged. From photos, I had the idea that they were silver.
About the color photo of the German plane, I would disregard it, because it don't show difference between brown and dirty green. Perhaps it was corrected or colorized by someone that didn't know about brown.
Are there reliable matches for prewar Czech paints?
I am sure that Tapani will certainly draw a Slovak one.
It is incredible how illustrators disregarded photos and copied a drawing in contrast with them for so many years. Who drew the Slovak one probably was the only one that believed to the original photographic evidence.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2017, 12:54:13 PM »

Hi Massimo,
the planes were delivered in 1938 and had original VVS camouflage/painting:


Planes were painted light grey on uppersurfaces and sides and reportedly they had original light bluegrey painting on the uder surfaces. However, on the photo it looks like solid light grey color on all surfaces.


Planes were camouflaged in autumn 1938. Order specifically directed to leave original VVS painting (grey? or bluegrey?) on the under surfaces.


Original VVS ShKAS machine guns were replaced by cs. machine guns Vz.30 on the front/nose and dorsal position.


I will ask at Czech modelforum about reliable matches for prewar Czech paints.
Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2017, 05:53:43 PM »

Hi Misos,
thank you for explanations. So, it is said that their upper and side surfaces were repainted with a Czech light grey, that can't be distinguished in photos from the original Soviet blue-grey.
Anyideas for the color matches? I think to take the drawing of LK as a base, exchanging the shades, and making the dirty grey (light) more yellowish and the grey-green (the dark color) more dark, in the range of Humbrol 66.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2017, 06:33:32 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I was not clear enough. Planes came from SU in original VVS painting, e.g. overall light grey with reportedly light bluegrey undersurfaces.
In 1938 were repainted only uppersurfaces and sides by Czech paints, leaving undersurfaces in original VVS color (e.g. either light grey or reportedly light bluegrey).
I have asked about exact shades of those Czech paints at Czech modelforum, no response so far.
Their translated names were (Earth) Brown, on photos dark similarly to Green Grey (greenish grey) and the third color was Dirty Green that looks the lightest color on bw photos.
All gunner positions had single machine gun Vz.30, not twins like original ShKAS.
Regards,
  66misos
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66misos
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2017, 05:39:27 PM »

Hi Massimo,
Crash-landed B-71 of Slovak Air Arms:

Here is again visible that "Green Grey" is the darkest color on the tail, while shades of "Dirty Green" and "Brown" are lighter and hardly distinguishable, similarly to the color photo of the german B-71 in ma post above.

Avia B-71 dorsal gunner position with machine gun Vz.30:


and front/nose gunner:


More photos at http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/SB-2M/Tupolev-SB-2M/pages/Avia-B-71-Prague-Czechoslovakia-1938-03.html

Camouflaged cs. B-71:



Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 05:49:27 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2017, 10:20:59 PM »

Hi Misos,
good images, thank you very much.
Now I'm completing a page on SB during the Winter War, there are some nice colorful tails in view.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2017, 08:36:58 AM »

Hi Massimo,
this photo was posted at Czech modelforum, it shows original B-71 rudder:


Nicely visible "Brown (H)"  on the upper half and "Dirty green (Z)" on the bottom part of the rudder, exactly like on this scheme:


rRegards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 08:51:21 AM »

Hi Misos,
very interesting, thank you very much.
The brown is just as expectations, but the dirty green is much darker than the bw photos suggest. I wonder if this is due to films, filters or if the color has darkened with time.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 10:31:59 AM »

Massimo,
the picture was taken in interior, no white bance correction. Plus age of that rudder has also some influence. Czechoslovak insignia should have pure white + red + dark blue color. And compare "white" color on insignia with the white walls or even better with the white paper sheets/panels. Colors are bleached and dirty.
Both colors were in reality more saturated and lighter.

The dark color, e.g. "Green Grey" should be something pretty dark, like RLM 70 or RLM 66.

For undersurfaces I would choose VVS gloss light grey AE-9, oil enamel, standard exterior paint for metal surfaces in 1937-1940:



Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 10:44:30 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2017, 01:57:31 PM »

Hi Misos,
this sounds very reasonable.
What are colors Agama c8, c9 and c10? Are they specific for Czech planes?
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2017, 04:48:36 PM »

Hi Massimo,
here is a list of Agama enamel paints http://obchod.agama-model.cz/en-kategorie_56563-0-czech-shades.html




I do not know the origin of their decissions, there is no official refference for those prewar color. But Agama C10 Black Olive is darkest so it should represent "Green Grey". And Agama C8 Greygreen is lighter so it should represent "Dirty Green". I would not rely on their color selection.
Regards,
   66misos
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