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Author Topic: Two shades of AII green.  (Read 3978 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: February 02, 2018, 05:58:55 PM »

Hi,
I am in contact with Maciej Goralczyk of AK-interactive, that is in contact with Mr. Orlov.
I asked to make a question to him:
Quote
I would ask if he has further informations on the shades of green utilized in late '30s. For example, if the shade utilized in 1938 on I-15bis (apparently dark) is the same or not of that utilized in 1940 for I-153s (apparently lighter).


The answer from Mr. Orlov:
Quote
In the second half of the 30s, AII Protective was used.
By Resolution TO No. 220ss from 23.05.40, the coloring of the upper surfaces in "greenish color (under the color of grass)" was introduced. " In this connection, on 19.07.40, the technical specification for light-green AII dope is introduced. As the name suggests, the color of the new dope is lighter.
Based on the time of release of aircraft and aerosols, it is logical to use AII light green for I-153. For coloring I-15bis - there is no other alternative, except AII protective.
There is a "signed" sample of AII protective. I have no "signed" sample of AII light-green. There are samples of fabric coverings, painted in a light green color. With a high degree of probability, it can be assumed that they are painted with AII light-green dye.

This confirms what I thought, the shades were different but had the same name. So, the considerations made years ago about the colors (underlying the later repaintings) of I-153 of Bourget and the indications of a dark shade for I-15bis and R-5 are clear now.
Probably the shade of the light AII green isthe same reported for A-19f for metallic planes.

My thanks to Mr. Orlov and to Maciej.

Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2018, 06:37:07 PM »

Hi Massimo,
very interesting info about two shades of All Green used in parallel in late '30 and early '40. There is only a step to the idea about early MiG-3 planes in light green+dark green color scheme. Huh
Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2018, 10:14:01 PM »

Hi Misos,
I've asked just this, if it is a matter of different degradation of paint or if they could use paints from two different stocks. I'm waiting for another answer from them.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2018, 12:13:48 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I did not mean different colors on the metal and wooden/fabric surfaces.
I mean such low contrast two-color (e.g. two-green) camouflage:


Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2018, 01:15:18 PM »

Hi Misos,
I'll ask eventually, but colors on such photos are very matt, I don't think that the old theory of a camouflage with AII light green and dark green is much likely in these cases. Yes, it could explain the dishomogeneity in panting of some LaGG and MiG just before the war, repainting with the wrong color.... but these matt and faded planes look as painted with AMT-paints,aged and chalked. This kills the contrast.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2018, 02:08:27 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I do not want to argue I only suggest to take into account also other considerations.
All planes before war were in a pretty goog conditions, they were well maintenanced, clean and glossy - simply prepared for war.
German photos show captured planes left without any care for days or weeks. Left modern glossy car in the summer somewhere outside - after several days of dust and rain the car looks pretty matt.
And on the other side, so-called matt AMT paints were at least semigloss when they were applied.
Regards,
   66misos
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AC26
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2018, 03:10:28 PM »

Hi all,

There are parts of a MiG-3 painted sometime late 1940 to spring 1941 and a 1930's built Po-2 in overall green top finish. The Polikarpov is much darker than the MiG. In MiG-3 #32profile I would change the lighter green to mid green and darker to dark green excepting used colours were those mentioned.

I think most plane and automotive paints before and during the WW2 were cellulose formulas which lost it's shine much more quickly in comparison to current water-based and often clear lacquered car paints.

Cheers,

AaCee
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 06:27:20 PM »

Hi Misos, hi AC,
it has to be taken into account that the MiG-3 of the photo is of late type, they started to be delivered to units in around August 1941; for what it's known, they never wore the prewar glossy livery. I think that they were camouflaged in factory, so I think that the reduction in contrast is due to weathering.
I've seen a color or colorized photo of early MiG-3 somewhere, where there are unexpected dark areas. they are very blurried, so I think that it was due to mainenance.
If I can find that photo I can show it, but I don't remember now. The same for prewar LaGG-3s, a page that I've uploaded recently.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2018, 04:18:28 PM »

Hi all,
I've modified the pages on colors to make two different shades of AII green in use, the darker one of 1938 and a lighter one of 1940, possibly in parallel with the older and darker one.
I've made some minor modifications to some chips as AMT-1 and A-21m.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2018, 08:50:00 AM »

Hi Massimo, Misso and the others!

very interesting thematic

if I understand well in the Orlov answer, we have three steps...

1) "In the second half of the 30s, AII Protective was used." since 1937 if I am not wrong.

2) By Resolution TO No. 220ss from 23.05.40, the coloring of the upper surfaces in "greenish color (under the color of grass)" was introduced
Here it can perfectly be the same than AII use before...
Any way i don't understand very well why he use "intoduce" word; it have been done earlyer, i thought the new color introduced un 1940 was AII blue..

3) on 19.07.40, the technical specification for light-green AII dope is introduced. As the name suggests, the color of the new dope is lighter.
so it means that another AII green is mentioned, a lighter one...
Does the lighter one substitute the other, or both were use? hard to say I imagine...
Anyway for a modeler, it is an element wuch can be important for 1940 planes...

Orlov says There is a "signed" sample of AII protective do we know what sample he is talking about? can we ask him for this sample picture? it is an important element IMO....

he says too: There are samples of fabric coverings, painted in a light green color. With a high degree of probability, it can be assumed that they are painted with AII light-green same thing of course...

Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2018, 10:43:44 AM »

Hi Xan,
I hadn't further informations of interest from this source.
I suppose that the light AII green was that found on the I-153 in Bourget under the German (or postwar) dark green and could be similar to the A-19f that was in the earlier catalogue of Akan, while the color of 1938 was the same reproduced ny AKAN as AII green. I suppose that both paints were defined as AII protective, and this could have created some confusion in 1940/41 with some planes, or parts of planes, still using the old darker color on wooden and fabric parts, or a mix between the old and new paint to utilize existing stocks.
You are in better conditions than me to find chips of the fabric removed from the I-153 during the restoration.  Should you obtain some, please keep us informed.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2018, 10:22:19 AM »

Hello Massimo,
in the Le bourget I-153, there was no AII green as far as I remenber, the plane was originaly painted in AII silver.



I represent it at 1/48


fot the evidence od AII green, may be i talk about the Mig-3 ?



but then , if I understood , it would be AII light green....

Xan
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 10:25:30 AM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2018, 10:51:04 AM »

Hi,
for what I remember, the plane was made with an ensemble of pieces from two planes. I think to remember that on one piece, perhaps the rudder, a light green was found. There should be some discussion on the forum, but I think that the photos loaded on Photobucket can't long be accessed, or at least visualized on the forum. I remember to have remarked the difference between the grassy shade described and the description of AII green given by German sources relative to some R-Z or R-5 captured in Spain, if I remember well.
I suggest to ask to the restorer.
About the MiG-3, I'm in doubt. From the photos and timeframe it is likely that it was the light version. Anyway it is somewhat darker than on metallic parts. Probably it is not the color of 1938, but who knows. Perhaps they mixed old and now stocks to utilize remains.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 10:55:24 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2018, 08:09:44 AM »

Hi, some of the AII light green green is visible on the top of the rudder of the small photo on a corner of the image of your model.
Regards
Massimo
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warhawk
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2018, 01:41:23 PM »

There should be some discussion on the forum, but I think that the photos loaded on Photobucket can't long be accessed, or at least visualized on the forum.

Massimo,

Try the Photobucket hotlink fix plugin (for Your respective browser).
i have installed it for Chrome, and can view all images from Photo(chum)bucket without problems.

Aleksandar
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