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Author Topic: Greetings from Argentina  (Read 1539 times)
Kalt
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« on: March 17, 2018, 03:02:22 PM »

Hi everybody!
First, I would like to thanks Massimo for activating my account.
I am Claudio Kalicinski from Argentina. I am mainly a WWI modeller with an interest in WWII aircraft (mainly British) but I have several VVS kits I want to build them. Lurking at the forum I realized that the little I knew about VVS aircraft colours was wrong...so I will need a lot of help with my builds.
My first project will be a ski-equipped I-16 Type 10 (?) in a strange (at least for me) winter camo:

i16-type10-red12 by clkal, en Flickr

I found some accuracy problems in others profiles and I would like to know if this one is correct
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 12:28:52 PM by Kalt » Logged

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library.
Jorge Luis Borges
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2018, 10:11:16 PM »

Hi Claudio,
welcome here.
About the profile, I don't remember to have seen photos of this, and an overall white plane with black parts is unlikely. 
Perhaps the  artist has some photos, but the interpretation is unlikely. Maybe changing black with dark green it could be somewhat more likely, it is possible that planes were repaired with parts of other planes that hadn't the winter camouflage. Even so, the black part under the fuselage is unlikely. It could be dirty of stains, or painted with some darker shade of light blue, but why black?
If you want, we can suggests other photos or more likely profiles for your project.
Some photos and explanations on the painting can be found here (first two links), just to have an idea. Then one can look for some plane in particular.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/i16/i16.htm

Regards
Massimo
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Kalt
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2018, 04:52:00 AM »

Thanks Massimo for the reply. The profile appeared in an article from "Modeling the VVS" site and was based on this photo:

deco-13 by clkal, en Flickr

Apparently, more photos exist of this an other machines (numbers "12", "9", "6", and "3) of the same unit but I couldn't find them.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 04:53:34 AM by Kalt » Logged

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library.
Jorge Luis Borges
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2018, 08:22:18 AM »

Hi Claudio,
on the whole, this is better than I thought.
About the front face of the cowling, it is not impossible that this was black if the plane is of early type (5/6) and preserves the painting of the '30s. Anyway this plane seems a type 10 because of the protruding barres covers and the lack of an intake between them and, for what I know, these planes came out of factory with dark green fronts and sides, and light grey under panel of the cowling.
The upper surface of the wing was more likely green, and so the tail. It is difficult to say if the tail is of another plane, that could justify a sharp end of the white painting, or the white painting ends with irregular brush strokes, and where and how.
The color behind the outer part of the wings was likely aluminum, utilized in late '30s for fabric and wood skinned parts; it reflects the white of the snow on the outer part, while it reflects the shadow area in its part closer to the landing gear.
The inner part of the wings, passing under the fuselage, is strangely dark. I don't think that it could be black. The color exoected in association to aluminum painted wings should be light grey AE-9, but the image looks too dark. It could be some non standard grey-blue, and appear so dark because of the contrast with the snow and the photo exposure. Or it could be glossy red if the plane was part of some aerobatic team and was hurrily repainted in uncomplete way, but this doesn't seem so likely.
It seems likely that the red stars conformed to the prewar standard, above and below the wings and on the fuselage, but it could be that this was altered.
I'll see if I can find further photos of this plane or other ones of the same unit, but I can't promise to find them.
Eventually, you could start to look for alternatives.
Regards
Massimo
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Johann
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2018, 10:51:23 AM »

Good day. If not secret, this profile you found in the works of Erik Pilyavsky ?? I would not much trust him, too often and a lot of mistakes,
and all too often his conclusions are fictitious.
But yes, this machine existed. Although the flowers of the Pilawskii in the root does not agree.
But with the conclusions of the respected Massimo I can not disagree.
Most likely the coloration is quite standard green top blue bottom, The only bottom of the wing is likely silvery.
The top of the wing is green that can be clearly seen in the photo. Winter camouflage on the fuselage.

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Kalt
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 12:20:58 PM »

Thanks Massimo for taking the time to analyze the photo. Your conclusions are very convincing.

Meanwhile, I found the original article:

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/I16/artdeco-i16.php

Quote
"Red 12" was one of a line-up of I-16s photographed in service with an unknown unit on the Leningrad Front, ca. winter 1940-41. The service unit and pilots of these machines are unknown.

I have always been amused by V. Romanov's classic line describing this line-up photograph as the "Squadron of the Indecisive Camouflage". Certainly the description seems adequate, for the application and colors used here are indeed unique and unusual. The aircraft in question are all Type 10s with retractable ski undercarriages, and all of them appear to have been finished in a similar manner. Numbers "12, "9", "6", and "3" are visible in the shot.

The aircraft are covered with a thick--if not skillfully--applied coat of MK-7 White, both on the upper and lower surfaces. Or, at least most of them. From the well-known view, the cowl face and the upper surface of the wing outer panels are finished in Black. Or, at least this seems most likely. Romanov claimed the paint was Factory Green color, and while this is indeed plausible as per the appearance of the machines in the photo, it does not seem likely to me that anyone outside of Factory No.1 would have been able to obtain quantities of this paint, whereas Black was entirely ubiquitous.

A new view of one of these machines has appeared recently, happily enough, one which has exposed the details of the undersurfaces of these aircraft; details which were previously unknown. This photo [see above] shows one of these aircraft in a rather unfortunate condition, but exposing its undersurface for us to see. One can now make out that the entire fuselage center-section was painted black on the underside, as well. Also, we see more evidence of the color in question--we know that the underside of the skis were black, and unless the unit re-painted these as well their color seems to match very well that on the rest of the machines. The result is, quite in fact, rather a checkerboard appearance, a la Romanov.

It should be noted, however, that this type of improbable coloration is not unprecedented in VVS history. There are few photographs showing Il-2s and Yak-7s in a white winter livery supplemented by black appliqu 'blobs' in service on the Leningrad Front during the winter of 1942-43. However odd, someone in that region had the idea of Black and White coloration in mind for some time as a possible Winter application.
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I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library.
Jorge Luis Borges
Kalt
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Posts: 7


« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 12:27:00 PM »

Good day. If not secret, this profile you found in the works of Erik Pilyavsky ?? I would not much trust him, too often and a lot of mistakes,
and all too often his conclusions are fictitious.
But yes, this machine existed. Although the flowers of the Pilawskii in the root does not agree.
But with the conclusions of the respected Massimo I can not disagree.
Most likely the coloration is quite standard green top blue bottom, The only bottom of the wing is likely silvery.
The top of the wing is green that can be clearly seen in the photo. Winter camouflage on the fuselage.

Thanks Johann for the better resolution photo!
I know about the accuracy "problems" in Pilawskii works. That was the reason I asked about this particular I-16 it looks too good to be real....
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 12:29:58 PM by Kalt » Logged

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library.
Jorge Luis Borges
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2018, 03:31:43 PM »

Hi Claudio and Johann,
I see two interesting things  in what EP writes (if it is true): that the photo was taken before the war, when winter finish was highly unusual, and that some other photos of the plane do exist.

Regards
Massimo
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Kalt
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Posts: 7


« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 07:01:36 PM »

Thanks, Massimo. Do you know of other examples of aircraft being camouflaged with black and white paint?
If the colour was green instead of black which green was probably used?

Meanwhile, I am looking for a less controversial scheme....Any suggestion for a Ski equipped type 10 or 17?

Regards,

Claudio
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I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library.
Jorge Luis Borges
Massimo Tessitori
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Posts: 5725


« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2018, 07:56:00 AM »

Hi Claudio,
here is one.
http://hyperscale.com/features/2002/i16jr_1.htm
The photo was shown on Squadron/Signal, and I am sure that it was posted on this forum too. It was discussed if part of the winter painting could have been silver instead of white.
Maybe someone could help to find it.
The color of the upper surfaces could be the AII green of 1938, the dark shade (in 1940, a lighter shade of AII green was introduced).

The closer match should be Akan 318, I have to look for matches of another brands. It is a very dark yellowish green.
regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2018, 08:00:37 AM »


Quote
Do you know of other examples of aircraft being camouflaged with black and white paint?
There are photos of Li-2 where the green was covered by winter white paint leaving the black visible, other ones where only the green was left visible and black was covered. I don't think that this helps a lot.
Regards
Massimo
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Kalt
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Posts: 7


« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2018, 04:26:48 AM »

Thanks Massimo, I use to build my models using photos as reference not only profiles and without the other photos showing the rest of this particular machine I think I am going to take your advice about the In Action's Type-10

Kind regards,

Claudio
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I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library.
Jorge Luis Borges
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5725


« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2018, 12:48:13 PM »

Hi Claudio, have you found that book or scans?
Regards
Massimo
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Kalt
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Posts: 7


« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2018, 03:06:43 PM »

Yes Massimo, I have the book. but looking at the photo I am not sure if the cowling was black....I think it was green with unevenly brush strokes of white paint applied
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I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library.
Jorge Luis Borges
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5725


« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2018, 04:51:36 PM »

Hi Claudio,
yes, I think it was green. Type 10 should come out of factory with dark green uppersurfaces and silver-grey undersurfaces.
I mean, light grey on metallic parts, aluminum dope on fabric/wood ones.
Regards
Massimo
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