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Author Topic: I-16 camo during Nomonhan incident and at Mozdok airfield 1943  (Read 3229 times)
BLG
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« on: September 19, 2018, 01:01:22 AM »

Hello everybody,
I have begun here http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2386.0 a discussion with Massimo about possible 2 tones camouflage of I-16  type 5.
Massimo thinks that  the 2 tones on  the picture that I had choosen   in "Painting evolution of the I-16" could be due to high contrast between  green on metallic and wooden structure  

He proposed me to look at this one taken during the Nomonhan incident


It's well known that I-15 bis, I-153 and SB were camouflaged in the field during this "incident" (more than 8000 deaths in each of the 2 armies)

In "Air War Over Khalkhin Gol, The Nomonhan Incident (V Kotelnikov)" , there are pictures of Type-10 and their interpretation as camouflaged  aircrafts.
I suppose that the artist had the originals in hands because I find that the reproduction in the book could be interpreted as worn paint.
Furthermore, I disagree with the comments of the profiles . As grey I-16 are uncommon, if these planes are really camouflaged, I think that it is rather blotches of grey which were painted on AIIz/AIIg planes.



In this book, there is a picture of V. Skobarikhin in front of his Type 10. The contrast is better than those of the previous pictures. One could see  handbrushed grey strips like those done on green I -15 bis or I-153 . I have made an attempt of colorization (I'm not an artist) . If the planes on the  first picture are really Type -5 ( lack of fuselage gun is not obvious as it's blurry) , I could have found a 2 tones Type -5 to paint. Cheesy
Any idea?





Regards
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 01:01:20 AM by BLG » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 08:05:49 AM »

Hi Bernard,
Quote
In this book, there is a picture of V. Skobarikhin in front of his Type 10. The contrast is better than those of the previous pictures. One could see  handbrushed grey strips like those done on green I -15 bis or I-153 . I have made an attempt of colorization (I'm not an artist) . If the planes on the  first picture are really Type -5 ( lack of fuselage gun is not obvious as it's blurry) , I could have found a 2 tones Type -5 to paint. Cheesy
Any idea?

The plane of Skobarikhin shows well the camo, I think that the lines are serpentine curves instead of vertical strokes. Pity that the number is not shown.
I suggest to see if some russian speaking friend can write a question on Scalemodels.ru or other russian sites to know if better versions of the photo of n.4 do exist, or if the version can be identified via other historical sources.

Regards
Massimo

« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 10:21:24 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
BLG
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2018, 11:05:31 AM »

Hi Massimo,
Thank you for your always quick answers.
My question was not about the shape of the grey camo , but on its reality. 
You agree with grey on AII green.
If all these I-16 are camouflaged, the camo varies from thin serpentines to large blotches.
If we bet that the first I-16 on the picture is a type 5, I could paint mine like  that ??


Regards
Bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2018, 01:56:43 PM »

Hi Bernard, do you see a light spinner? i think that it was as the front plate.
I see that the panel under the engine wasn't black, so the nose had to be green, not black. I have seen that type 5 often had black nose, but not always- My visual impression of the top of the nose is of a type 5.
I would continue the light blotch on the cockpit area backwards.
Regards
Massimo
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BLG
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 05:49:09 PM »

Hi Massimo,
The light colour cone is due to the fact that i'm not comfortable with colorization procedures. I forgot to fill the mask of the cone with green. I agree with you,  the front is green. The blotches are not accurate. I draw them quickly  only to have a general impression and your advice.
My purpose is not to make the model of the 4 seen on this picture, but a camouflaged Type 5 in Nomonhan template. I will use the profiles of the Type-10 #3 and 5  as guides.
Regards
Bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2018, 06:11:29 PM »

Hi Bernard,
this sounds fair, such a plane would be likely enough, and it would be difficult to demonstrate that it is wrong.
Regards
Massimo
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BLG
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2018, 09:12:48 AM »

Hi Massimo,
Last question. Blotches and underside, same grey?, AE9? I have read in a discussion that the underside of   I-16 from Zavod 31 production was a light blue which change quickly
by aging to light grey. On the I-15 bis, the underside is lighter then the serpentines.




Regards
Bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 05:55:53 PM »

Hi Bernard,
certainly not AE-9 that is very light, as the cowling of the I-15bis.
None knows the exact color, I think. I would go with a medium grey.
Regards
Massimo
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BLG
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2018, 08:18:14 PM »

Thank you Massimo for all this advices.
I will send you the result of my interpretation in a few days.
Best regards
Bernard
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BLG
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2018, 12:32:53 AM »

Hi Massimo,
The Nomonhan Type 5  picture is labelled "Voennaja Armada,2, 2001"

I have found in the forum that it was sent to you by ChristanK . In the post http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=698.msg3411#msg3411 he said that he has blurred the picture.
 
Do you know what is "Voennaja Armada", a magazine I suppose but I have found nothing on the web, even spelling Voennaya.

Have you seen a better picture than the one you published?

Have you still contact with ChristianK ?
Regards
Bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2018, 09:16:34 AM »

Hi Bernard,
you can try to send a personal mail to ChristianK via the forum to invite him to enter into this topic.
Regards
Massimo
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BLG
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Posts: 79


« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2018, 09:26:01 AM »

Hi Massimo
I will do that with little hope, as Christian has not visited the forum since 2015.
Regards
Bernard
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ChristianK
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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2018, 11:24:44 AM »

Hey there, I am still alive  Grin

And I discovered that, back then, I messed up the citation. The photo was not printed in "Voennaya Armada" but in "Voennaya Letopis". Bernhard, I've send you a PM..

Cheers,
Christian
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BLG
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Posts: 79


« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2018, 10:46:53 PM »

Hi every body.

Quote from: ChristianK link4
Hey there, I am still alive
Thanks to Christian to be alive Wink  and more seriously to have send me very quickly the original picture which is more readable than the one available here.
Furthermore, I have been able to find "Voennaya Letopis", 2, 2001 here.

https://fr.calameo.com/books/00135292801b0829b8012 .

Unfortunately, the scan is a rather low definition .
So, if someone may find a print of this magazine , we could have a good picture of a 2 tons camouflaged type-5



With this better picture, the planes are clearly type 5. And apparently , types with windshield (the first) and closed canopy , (the second aircraft). This is coherent with what D.Nediakov wrote  in"In the skies of Nomohan", Crecy classic:  Before the incident, the 70IAP had 30 I-16 type 5 and 6, 13 were airworthy.
All the I-16 send after were type 10 and 17.


Here is an enlarged picture of the I-16 type 5 bort number 4




and an atempt to colorize



Cheers
Bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2018, 10:32:30 PM »

Hi Bernard,
so, the dark line visible on the second plane could be the tube-typa aiming device with the lided forward canopy still covering it, while the closer plane has the later collimator contained into the windshield.
Good thing to have found that citation from Nediakov, now you can make a relatively accurate model of type 5 with a fairly good reference.
I think to know a link where to download the scans, but I fear that a download from such site could be risky for the health of my pc.
Regards
Massimo
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