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Author Topic: I-16 camo during Nomonhan incident and at Mozdok airfield 1943  (Read 3166 times)
BLG
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« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2018, 10:57:42 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I think that all the scans of Armada Letopis that we can found on the web have the same origin  and that the definition will not be better than what Christian provided me or what I found on Calameo. I have a russian friend which is looking for the printed issue . The other and best option would be to know the reference of the picture published by Armada and try to find a copy.
A russian speaking member of the forum could write to the editor.
But all this efforts are not necessary for my project. I have enough arguments to make a late type 5 in 2 tones camouflage
Regards
Bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2018, 06:55:15 AM »

Hi Bernard,
I would add a grey brush stroke on the upper right side of the cowling, it is less visible because the frontal lightening put the side of the cowling into shadow.
Each grey dot looks made with a mess of light curved lines.
I think that the lower surfaces were painted light grey on their metallic parts, and silver on the wood and fabric skinned ones.  I don't know if the dark dots on the lower surfaces are real, probably they are defects of the photo (it's easy to delete them on the sky and ground, but not on the details of the photo).
Regards
Massimo
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BLG
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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2018, 02:02:56 AM »

Hi Massimo,
Thank you for this precisions. I will follow your advices for the blotches. It's sure that the dots underside are photo defects.
The question of the underside grey/alu or light blue for the I-16 during the period 37-39 is always a debate. Huh
I have no opinion. You says Grey/alu, and  AlexGRD  says AIIg. Undecided
 Apparently, Zavod 21 never used  grey/alu  but a light blue changing to light grey when aging. So for the Type 10 which were all built in Z21, we have the answer.  The type 5 were built in  Z21 and Z153 in 1938, and all came from Z153 in 1939.
Due to geographic proximity, it would be logical that I-16 sent to Mongolia came from Novossibirsk. So the question is how were painted the I-16 at Zavod 153 end of 1938-beginning of 1939?

Regards
Bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2018, 08:00:11 AM »

Hi Bernard,
my consideration on the undersurfaces is based on this photo:

The first planes had a dark shade on the undersurfaces, probably early blue or blue-grey, and black cowlings visible on the lower side too.
The far planes have light undersurfaces, I think silver and grey, without the black cowling.



From what I think to see on your photo, the planes in Nomothan war look closer to this look even if they were type 5. Besides I think to see a difference in shade on the undersurfaces of plane 4 between the outer wing panels, presumably silver, and the part inside the landing gear that was metallic, presumably grey.

For what I know, AII light blue came in use in 1940. If someone has good reasons to think that it was in use before, I am interested of course.

Regards
Massimo
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BLG
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Posts: 79


« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2018, 12:19:04 PM »

Hi Massimo,

You are right . No AIIg before 1940 and  two options for 1937-39  if we trust  Vahlamov and Orlov.Ae-9 or  or Ae-8/AII-Al

Here is a discussion introduced by KL about I-15 which confirm your opinion.

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20208&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight

Regards
Bernard

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2018, 01:08:43 PM »

Hi Bernard,
seems that we have reached some conclusions on the likely look of that plane. It would be a good color profile. Even a profile of plane n.5 would be possible, with the early type canopy.
For I-16s with early type canopy, will you use the one of the amodel kit or do you know any vacuformed replacement?
Regards
Massimo
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BLG
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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2018, 02:31:01 PM »

Hi Massimo,

For the contrast between Ae8 and AII Al, are this pictures good exemples ?




Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
It would be a good color profile.

IS 66MISOS HERE?
Cheesy
 If I could have several advices to interpret the pattern on the picture, I would find myself more comfortable


Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
you know any vacuformed replacement?

Yes, those I produce myself.  Wink
I used the very nice canopy found in the box of the TsKB-12 produced by Prop and Jet to make a master, so I have been able to prepare several closed canopies. For the windshield, I have used both canopies  of the Hasegawa kit (it's nearly the only accurate part of the kit) and the falcon canopy found in the clearwax set N24 to make masters

The P&J canopy



Vacuforming




The result on Seguey Tharkov Type 5.


I have begun to post my production here . There are the TsKB-12 and the Type 4 on line and the UTI-2 pending.
I will post the different Type -5 when this Nomonhan will be finished

http://fighters.forumactif.com/t88113-polikarpov-i-16-du-proto-au-i-185-pj-amodel-icm-artmodel-1-72


Regards
Bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2018, 03:42:54 PM »

Hi Bernard, it is an excellent thing to be able to produce good vacuformed canopies.  I've a type 5 of Amodel still to build that would need one, plus a second ne could be good for the TsKB-15 (I-17); I've provisionally utilized the one of the kit, but it is not very satisfying. Do you think that could be good as a master?
Another canopy that I should vacuform is that of the I-30 (Yak-3 of 1941) that is defectively done on the windshield.
About the photos: yes, they are in line with other photos of planes with the same livery. Grey AE-9 appears very light on photos.
Regards
Massimo
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BLG
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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2018, 04:22:22 PM »

Hi Massimo,
The Amodel canopy  is a little bit too wide, so if you make the master with it + the thickness of your acetate/PVC/polyester .... the result will be far too wide
My technic is to make a silicon mould of the canopy I have choosen, so it remains usable, then to cast a plaster with resin  .
With the Amodel which has a good global shape but which is not usable directly, too thick, opaque and with surface defects, you can trim and polish it to the right shape for a master = a litlle less thant the real canopy to take in account the thickness of the material, then mold it and make the master. It's not possible  to use it directly as a master if you heat directly the sheet as I do. Furthermore, with a mold you can do several masters  .
The second way is to use the Amodel canopy without improvement  to make the mold and to trim and polish the master(s)  to the right shape. With several assays, you may obtain  the perfect one.
The 3rd, buy the TsKB-12 kit. There are 2 canopies in it. Wink

Regards
bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2018, 09:06:11 PM »

Hi Bernard,
your suggestions are good, just I hoped that there was an easier way to do it. Working directly on the canopy of the kit is risky in case of failure, so a resin copy of it would be better.
I've worked with silicon and resin in the past, I know they are expensive and dirty. I hoped to find some other way to do it, but I fear that there is not any better method.
The TsKB-12... nice, but certainly expensive.
Regards
Massimo
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BLG
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2018, 10:12:03 PM »

Hi Massimo
When I say plaster with resin, it's not PU used to make kits. It's plaster with vinylic or acrylic resin which are already mixed  . It's possible to use plaster used on walls of houses like this one you can find in Italy.

https://www.leroymerlin.it/catalogo/gesso-da-muro-axton-1-kg-36615544-p. 2,4/kg

It may be coarse and difficult to use in small molds


I prefer to use a plaster for artist that hardens quickly and is made to be  be poured . Even in very small volume ( a 1/72 type 5 canopy) it works  without bubbles

https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B0027ITVR6/ref=pe_3044141_185740131_TE_item

 9.9/kg. If it remains usable , I have enough until my death.
This kind of plaster is hard and may  be filed,sanded,  carved and polished .


 
I use a silicon from an italian company. Resin pro. The I-gum is very easy to use even in very small quantity, like 1 or 2 grams . It's like siligum, but less expensive.
 It's a gum, not a liquid and you have to mix the 2 parts in equal quantities like the the modeling clay of our childhood.
Not dirty at all. You have about 5mn to make the mold and it's usable after15 mn.

https://www.resinpro.it/product-category/gomma-siliconica-e-squishy/

If you dont want to use silicon, there are reusable plastic you can melt in hot water like the blue stuff of "green stuff" shop. I have tried, the molds are not as fine as the silicon's, the melted plastic is very hot and the fingers suffer, like the object if it is fragiel.

http://www.greenstuffworld.com/en/26-reusable-blue-stuff

Hope this can help.
Regards
Bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2018, 08:23:52 AM »

Hi Bernard,
plaster for artists and siligum look promising, they are not too expensive. I think I'll buy some of it and try with canopies and maybe some other pieces.
Blue stuff... it could be interesting to try it as a material to make pieces, although I fear that they could deform if accidentally exposed to the sun light.
Thank you for your suggestions.
regards
Massimo
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BLG
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Posts: 79


« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2018, 10:55:32 AM »

Hi Massimo,
Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
  Blue stuff... it could be interesting to try it as a material to make pieces, although I fear that they could deform if accidentally exposed to the sun light.
Huh

The blue stuff is used to replace the silicon to make the molds. To make pieces, it's green stuff or milliput.

Look at these videos at the end of this page.

http://www.greenstuffworld.com/en/reusable-blue-stuff/2-blue-stuff-mold-4-bars.html

As the blue stuff is reusable, the price for a mold is nearly null. However, I prefer silicon gum.


This mold for the I-16 canopy used about 2,5 grams and I got 500g of I-Gumm for 14 . A mold=7cents , not too expensive for me. Smiley




Regards
Bernard
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2018, 07:31:32 AM »

Hi Bernard,
did you use some releasing agent on the canopy, or the silicon leave it being extracted easily?
I have to reproduce the vacuformed canopy of I-30 in better way. Is that silicone gum fluid enough to not deformate it while making the mould?
Regards
Massimo
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BLG
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Posts: 79


« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2018, 10:14:21 AM »

Hi Massimo,
I don't use releasing agent and had never problem. Polymerised I-Gum is not sticky at all. Easier to unmold than RTV (liquid silicon) . However, for certain materials or complex shape  it could be useful.
For a vacuform canopy, the gum could be be too hard. It's soft but not fluid
But do you need to make a mold of the external part of the canopy to prepare a master?
The canopy you will obtain will be larger than the model. If you want the same canopy than the model, pour directly the plaster in the vacufrom , after treatment with klir-future to protect it. And use an acetate of the same thickness than the model.
However, if you want to have a larger master to correct it by sanding, fill your canopy with plaster to make it rigid. Then you can mold it with I-gum.

Back to Nomonhan camo: The AII Al, shiny or dull?
I don't feel comfortable with making a lot of curved lines  for the blotches. I'm making trial on piece of plastic, but I will probably paint solid blotches.

Regards
Bernard
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