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Two Seat P-40 196 IAP Red 27
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Author Topic: Two Seat P-40 196 IAP Red 27  (Read 649 times)
erussell
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« on: August 08, 2022, 03:13:21 AM »

I am interested to find if there is more information about this aircraft. It is depicted on the box art of LF Models and Retrowings as a Klimov engine two seat P-40E with two apparently open cockpits. It is in a green and white camouflage scheme and attributed to 196 IAP being an "Attack/Trainer". I wonder what is the source of the information needed to develop such a kit.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2022, 07:12:42 AM »

Hi,
I've no idea about photos. I've seen a profile describing its painting as white over wooden aerolak. The inspiration looks EP, at least for colors, but I don't recognize the style.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 07:16:34 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
erussell
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2022, 09:26:08 AM »

I would like to see that profile, even though it is not worth much without a picture. There is a plan of the aircraft in AJ PRESS Monografie Lotnicze #65 Curtiss P-40 part 2. So we have maybe two pieces of (weak) evidence for its existence.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2022, 09:58:48 AM »

Hi,
here is the profile, but it's hard to consider it as a piece of evidence.

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erussell
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2022, 01:32:36 PM »

It's the first profile here
http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Arts/Art3596.htm
Still pretty weak evidence despite the detail
P-40E, conversion to twin with M-105R engine, winter 1942-43, Leningrad front, air. Kapitolovo.
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learstang
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2022, 02:20:42 AM »

Still, that's so unusual, a P-40, with twin open cockpits, with the M-105 engine, and such a strange camouflage that it leads me to think that there must have been some inspiration for this. Otherwise, it's just a strange fantasy from the artist.

Regards,

Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

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erussell
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Posts: 27


« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2022, 12:01:07 PM »

I have emailed (twice) the originators of the kit. LF Models (kit thought to pre-date 2010) have not bothered to reply, presumably meaning they have nothing to back up their model. Retrowings (kit from 2016) said they had photos but they think the few pictures they had went when their old PC crashed. Make what you will of that.
One theory is that it is completely bogus - the drawing artist in the Polish book got confused with the TP-40 (of which there were a number) and the profile artists decided that they would invent nice clothes for the drawing.
If anything further eventuates I will report back.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2022, 08:35:38 AM »

A what-if... well, anyway I think that is likely enough even if they hadn't images.
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erussell
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2022, 09:40:08 PM »

A modelling colleague also got interested in this aircraft and contacted Erik Pilawskii. He received a reply pretty much confirming the scepticism of most researchers. Here is the essence of his reply which I quite agree with.

An interesting enquiry, indeed. Let me start by saying that such a modification, at least conceptually, would not be out of the bounds of possibility. However, that said, I have never heard of this modification.

The unit we must focus on is the 1 ARB at Leningrad, a repair base famous for its work on modifying L-Lease aircraft. P-40s fitted with the M-105, for example, were built at this facility. During 1943 this base modified a P-40K (long fuselage sub-model) into a two-seat photo-reecce aircraft at the specific request of the 13th Army's HQ flight. A photo of this machine can be seen in Geust's Red Stars #4, p.47. This machine operated mostly with the 191 IAP, and as can be seen it retained its Allison engine and the second cockpit was mounted in-line, not in an elevated configuration.

The appearance on the model kit box is not convincing for many reasons, and primarily for two: 1) the use of white winter camouflage was completely out of date by this time and exceedingly unlikely; 2) the raised aft cockpit was not a feature of Soviet aviation of the time, and I can think of no fighter modified to 2-seat configuration in this manner off the top of my head. If any reference was used for this aircraft I am sure it was not a photo but rather written or anecdotal in nature. Ergo, I think your scepticism regarding this example is well founded, and minus photographic evidence I would avoid it.


He referred to a picture which may be found here (http://ava.org.ru/iap/191.htm) showing White 12 which
has retained its Allison and has an in-line cockpit arrangement. It's possible that White 12 "inspired" this so far undocumented scheme but the fundamental differences between 12 and 27 make it unlikely unless it was described over the phone between two different language speakers.

Mr Pilawskii makes a fair point about the timeline of winter camouflage and the time of the modification being in conflict. I wish I had never volunteered to build this model!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 06:15:43 AM by erussell » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2022, 09:29:58 AM »

I had not noticed the image of plane 12. I suppose that it was similar to plane 34, but the photo shows very few of it. It could have preserved the original livery.
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