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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #195 on: December 26, 2008, 10:26:45 AM » |
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Hi John,  thank you for this note. They are forthemost I-153, with some SB and I-16. SB with mottled/wave mirror camo on third page are particularly nice. Massimo |
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marluc
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« Reply #196 on: December 27, 2008, 12:33:42 PM » |
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Thanks a lot John for this update,more interesting photos.Best regards:
Martin
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John Thompson
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« Reply #197 on: March 25, 2009, 01:46:31 AM » |
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #198 on: March 27, 2009, 07:27:56 AM » |
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Hi John, these are really clear images. Thank you for posting the link. Massimo |
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John Thompson
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« Reply #199 on: May 24, 2009, 02:45:26 AM » |
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« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 02:47:35 AM by John Thompson »
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #200 on: May 25, 2009, 12:13:49 PM » |
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Hi John, thank you for posting. Who knows if the band and number on the tail are white or what else... Massimo |
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marluc
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« Reply #201 on: May 25, 2009, 03:20:32 PM » |
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Thanks a lot John for the links,very interesting photos.
Massimo,at least to me,the number looks like red with a white border and the band,red at the top and a thin white line below.
The second I-16 looks like has no markings at all,not even red stars!!!
Best regards:
Martin
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John Thompson
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« Reply #202 on: May 30, 2009, 02:18:43 AM » |
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #203 on: May 30, 2009, 05:52:39 AM » |
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I think you have 'struck gold' with yet another German "meine doodle' (spelling?)
so in this case the star edge could quite literally be any color
particularly as I don't ever recall seeing a star border that thick before.
[/color]
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"when we lose the right to be different, we lose the priviledge to be free"--Charles Evans Hughes
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John Thompson
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« Reply #204 on: May 30, 2009, 02:03:02 PM » |
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I really have some trouble with that whole idea (the Germans were so bored they spent their time painting wrecked Russian aircraft? "The invasion on the Russian Front is going much too easily - we have to find some work for our soldiers so they don't turn to idleness and gambling. Have them paint wrecked aircraft."). I'd prefer to think that the very wide border on that star is the work of some highly motivated or very patriotic Russian ground crew member! I guess we will never be sure of the truth, though.
(I do have to say that the appearance of the people sitting on the aircraft does look more like some kind of work crew, rather than the usual "Wehrmacht tourists"! I don't see any paint brushes, but you never know!)
John
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« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 03:07:17 PM by John Thompson »
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #205 on: May 30, 2009, 03:25:31 PM » |
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Hi, nice image, really! Let's make a try... The base color could be aluminium (as on propeller and canopy frames), with hand brushed black, green and light brown, light blue undersurfaces and yellow star outline. All that yellow? Perhaps this is the only thing that is suspect as meine doodle, in my idea. Massimo |
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ChristianK
Jr. Member
Posts: 80
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« Reply #206 on: June 01, 2009, 07:40:12 PM » |
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Great find John! Regarding the star: I am pretty sure that this is a former large star replaced by a smaller one for more effective ground concealment. The broad "border" would hence be an unintended effect of this measure. It remains a mystery however, why there is a sharp demarcation line between the grey star-shaped area and the provisional camouflage. Here we have three possibilities: 1) The larger star was overpainted only after the camo job was done - but why the ground crew wouldn't have used one of the newer camo colors to do that, but exactly the same AEh laquer in which the plane originally was painted? 2) The older star was applied either as a decal or using washable paint and was removed after the camo was done. The original light grey color did show up again. 3) There was no star in this position before the camouflage job. When the unit decided to conceal its aircraft, this star scheme was masked out to apply a large star after the completion of the paint job. In the meantime the responsible officers changed their mind and a small star only was applied, leaving a large unpainted star-shaped area around it. Maybe something similar happened to the number "17" on the rudder. It looks like being of the original light grey color, too. Anyway, a really impressive bird we have here. Cheers, Christian EDIT: The same seller also offers this TB-3. Another marking never seen before: http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-erbeutetes-russisches-Flugzeug-Flieger-2-WK-II_W0QQitemZ320377190286QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitaria?hash=item4a97f7f78e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1229%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 |
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« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 07:52:45 PM by ChristianK »
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ChristianK
Jr. Member
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« Reply #207 on: June 01, 2009, 09:09:15 PM » |
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Me again, forget what I just wrote about the star. After some browsing through different Il-4/DB-3 images I found that a small fuselage star was pretty standard for those Ilyushin bombers - so likely the small star was not a replacement for a larger one. But still I am sure that the color around it is the original light grey laquer of the peace time scheme (Very probably this plane wasn't left in natural metal, as it clearly features a light blue undersurface color. This indicates the application of an upper surface color, too.). But frankly spoken, I have no idea now why they left this area unpainted when camouflaging the rest of the plane  Sorry, Christian |
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« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 02:08:41 AM by ChristianK »
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #208 on: June 02, 2009, 02:35:23 PM » |
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Hi Christian,
I see that the light border around the star os cutten by the light blue of undersurface.
In my idea the sequence was:
the plane was originally painted silver, as visinle on the engine and frames;
a 3 colors camo was applied on uppersurfaces;
a wide outline of uniidentified color was painted around the star;
the undersurfaces were painted light blue.
About the mystery color: I would exclude light blue, because it contrasts with the undersurface one. I would exclude silver, it should reflect in different way. Yellow is too visible, it would make the camo work unuseful. Now I am thinking to some light grey or some "dirty" white, or light blue-green as seen on a MiG.
Massimo
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ChristianK
Jr. Member
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« Reply #209 on: June 02, 2009, 03:49:52 PM » |
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Hi Massimo, while I have to agree with you about the silver/NMF finish on the engines/propellers/spinners I still believe that the dominating color of the uppersurfaces originally was a light grey. I believe some VVS bombers in the pre-Barbarossa era carried a light grey/light blue scheme; not all wore one color overall. Our DB-3 was one of them. Another example is this SB:  Source: http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Petlyakov/Pe-2/Camouflage/Manchuria/index.phpClearly this SB features a light grey uppersurface and a light blue undersurface. There remains a possibility that these two colors were added when the temporary green was applied, but would the unit really have used light grey as a camo color during summer? Anyway, the tone of the light colored star-frame on our DB-3 is an exact match for all spots of light grey showing through the temporary colors (except for the ones around the immediate front window area, but this is due to a more direct exposure to sunlight). Plus - if this would be a frame which was painted around the small star intentionally, how come it doesn't extent into the undersurface blue? You wrote this is because the undersurface was painted after the star was framed, but I think the light blue was there before (see my theory above). However, I might be all wrong with this, but it seems plausible to me. Ok, something that doesn't fit in my theory is the very light spot right aft of the fuselage star. But this might be just an area of chipped paint, as this is easily the lightest spot on the whole fuselage... Now, whatever is true about this Ilyushin's color - is there any info about the unit and location of this TB-3 I've linked in my last post?  |
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« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 04:00:18 PM by ChristianK »
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