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Searching for VVS Photos
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Author Topic: Searching for VVS Photos  (Read 345056 times)
KL
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« Reply #315 on: July 01, 2010, 09:46:47 PM »

Hi Massimo, Smiley

About the fragments of Montoya... it's possible that those colors are Spanish, but I think that only the lighter green of the SB was.

As a matter of fact, there is only a remote possibility that some paints used in Spain were Soviet.  Montoya's fragments are actually a material evidence that the local paints were used.

If SB was painted light grey or silver outside , the layer should be visible in chipped parts  between the zinc chromate and the dark green layer.

There is a gray AE-9 layer under dark green paint:  check the photo with Pilawskii's interpretation

About the pieces of I-16, I suppose that they were worn Soviet planes, and it's easy that they were repainted to delete the markings before delivery.

All SB bombers and I-16 fighters sent to Spain were brand new, latest models available.  It was a "clandestine" operation, so they probably arrived without any markings.

Of course, when we speak of brown and ochre, of course they were Spanish colors.

Olive green was also nonexistent in Soviet VVS.  In 1938 even light blue for undersides was discontinued.

Besides, it's likely that Spanish colors were different between the Republican and Nationalist side. The German-like colors could have been Spanish imitations of German colors.  Do you know if there is any deeper answer to this?

Of course, but Nationalists received more planes, they were better connected with their "allies", and it is more likely that they had received paint from Germany or Italy.  As we can see from posted photos, Nationalists adopted German Camouflage.  Republican SB bombers ended war camouflaged in "RAF style" Green-Brown disruptive scheme

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 09:51:52 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #316 on: July 01, 2010, 10:35:50 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
There is a gray AE-9 layer under dark green paint:  check the photo with Pilawskii's interpretation
I see a small part of grey in a zone of shadow, and the note of EP. But if this is an underlying layer of light grey, this means that the yellowish color can't be ALG-1 because I don't see grey interposed between it and the green paints. So it should be a Spanish ochre. If so, It would be a more valuable discover.
Massimo

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KL
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« Reply #317 on: July 04, 2010, 03:21:56 AM »

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

I see a small part of grey in a zone of shadow, and the note of EP. But if this is an underlying layer of light grey, this means that the yellowish color can't be ALG-1 because I don't see grey interposed between it and the green paints. So it should be a Spanish ochre. If so, It would be a more valuable discover.

Yes, "Spanish ochre" would be a spectacular discovery!
But, yellow on Montoya's fragments isn't  the "Spanish ochre" - it's Soviet ALG-1... Sad.
Yellow is clearly the first layer, both on green upper surface fragments and on gray undersurface fragments.  Fact that the yellow layer is more resistant to weathering than other colours, also confirms that it is actually a zinc-chromate protective coating.

RWD-13 rudder preserved in France remains the only example of "Spanish yellow"....

Cheers, Cool
KL 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #318 on: July 05, 2010, 08:08:48 AM »

Hi Konstantin,

Quote
But, yellow on Montoya's fragments isn't  the "Spanish ochre" - it's Soviet ALG-1... .
Yellow is clearly the first layer, both on green upper surface fragments and on gray undersurface fragments.  Fact that the yellow layer is more resistant to weathering than other colours, also confirms that it is actually a zinc-chromate protective coating.

this is described by Montoya in some forum or mail , or is an interpretation of the photo?
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #319 on: July 05, 2010, 10:30:40 PM »

Hi Massimo, Smiley

Quote
But, yellow on Montoya's fragments isn't  the "Spanish ochre" - it's Soviet ALG-1... .
Yellow is clearly the first layer, both on green upper surface fragments and on gray undersurface fragments.  Fact that the yellow layer is more resistant to weathering than other colours, also confirms that it is actually a zinc-chromate protective coating.

this is described by Montoya in some forum or mail , or is an interpretation of the photo?

It is my interpretation!
I may eventually check (or confirm) this with Montoya.

 Cool KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #320 on: July 06, 2010, 10:33:04 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
yes, please check this. Do you write Spanish?
Or eventually, Martin, could you write to Montoya to clarify this? If the yellow layer is over or under the light grey?
It would be interesting to know more on the shade of grey too, I haven't any chip for Ae-8.
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #321 on: July 06, 2010, 09:53:13 PM »

yes, please check this. Do you write Spanish?
Or eventually, Martin, could you write to Montoya to clarify this? If the yellow layer is over or under the light grey?

I. Montoya can read English.  But, in this case it is clear that the yellow layer is under the light gray.  Following fragment (again thanks to I. Montoya) is probably from fuselage undersides:



Lower yellow layer is ALG-1 zinc-chromate and the top light gray is AE-9 oil enamel.  No Spanish paints on this fragment - it should be noted that the SB bombers were repainted/camouflaged in Spain to hide them on airfields, not in the air.

It would be interesting to know more on the shade of grey too, I haven't any chip for Ae-8.

AE-8 is silver (or metallic aluminum more precisely) oil enamel.  It was used on series airplanes only in 1939-40.  AE-8 appeared to late for Spanish Civil War!
It's questionable if any series SB bombers were finished in AE-8, all wrecks (that I know) are finished in light gray AE-9.
A DB-3 wing fragment in one Finnish museum is probably painted in AE-8.  I'll try to find photo later.

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #322 on: July 07, 2010, 06:37:53 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for the image, it's new for me.
On this, the yellow looks underlying to the grey.
But I see something strange apparently underlying the yellowish layer. There is a brownish layer, then a grey one, and the base metal looks as dark as steel. I would like to know more on this.
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #323 on: July 07, 2010, 06:51:23 PM »

Hi Massimo,
a couple of useful images of the same wreck (Republican SB BK-93) can be found on the popular "Public Debate" at http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948_Albom_Nakrasok.html





As usual, "Military historian" didn't quote the source (Montoya) and he misidentified the gray colour!  Cheesy

Those two photos show AE-9 used as an interior paint (applied directly on duraluminum) and as an exterior paint (applied over yelow zinc-chromate ALG-1 primer).

But I see something strange apparently underlying the yellowish layer. There is a brownish layer, then a grey one, and the base metal looks as dark as steel. I would like to know more on this.

It is better to keep this simple:  we see here only original factory applied ALG-1 and AE-9

Light brown is some kind of chemical reaction commonly seen on 60-70 years old ALG-1 samples dug out from mud or ground.  Following is SB fragment from the Aviation Museum Of Southeast Finland in Lappeenranta, Finland:



This SB was also originaly finished in light gray AE-9 over ALG-1.  It was shut down by Finish fighters in Dec 1939 and the wreck was recoverd from mud approx. 10 years ago.

KL
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 09:52:33 PM by KL » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #324 on: July 08, 2010, 01:21:26 AM »

Konstantin, could this brown colour possibly be the origin of our old "friend" "AII Brown"?  Just throwing a wild theory out, as I'm still mystified as to why "AII Brown" persists in kit instructions and profiles!  Even Gordon and Komissarov's new book on the Il-2 has some late-war arrow profiles in "AII Brown" and green over blue.

Regards,

Jason
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 01:23:30 AM by learstang » Logged

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #325 on: July 08, 2010, 07:38:45 AM »

Hi Konstantin,

Quote
Hi Massimo,
a couple of useful images of the same wreck (Republican SB BK-93) can be found on the popular "Public Debate" at http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948_Albom_Nakrasok.html
The public monologue, do you mean?

Quote
As usual, "Military historian" didn't quote the source (Montoya) and he misidentified the gray colour! 

Those two photos show AE-9 used as an interior paint (applied directly on duraluminum) and as an exterior paint (applied over yelow zinc-chromate ALG-1 primer).

The inside grey looks darker. Maybe there is a base layer of A-14? I supposed that Zinc Chromate was applied directly on metal.

Quote
Light brown is some kind of chemical reaction commonly seen on 60-70 years old ALG-1 samples dug out from mud or ground.  Following is SB fragment from the Aviation Museum Of Southeast Finland in Lappeenranta, Finland:

Nice wreck. Is the grey part painted, or natural metal? It's strangely shining after 70 years.

Quote
Konstantin, could this brown colour possibly be the origin of our old "friend" "AII Brown"?  Just throwing a wild theory out, as I'm still mystified as to why "AII Brown" persists in kit instructions and profiles!  Even Gordon and Komissarov's new book on the Il-2 has some late-war arrow profiles in "AII Brown" and green over blue.
Hi Jason,
Have they written "AII brown", or it's simply dark brown?

Massimo



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learstang
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« Reply #326 on: July 08, 2010, 05:44:05 PM »

Massimo, the colour is not identified as "AII Brown", but it is a dark brown similar to the colour associated with that paint.  Is the term "AII Brown" completely an invention?

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #327 on: July 08, 2010, 09:04:27 PM »

Quote
could this brown colour possibly be the origin of our old "friend" "AII Brown"?  Just throwing a wild theory out, as I'm still mystified as to why "AII Brown" persists in kit instructions and profiles!

Dark brown persists on profiles and kits of Soviet WWII planes since the early days of this hobby in 1960-es! Airfix Il-2 and Yak-9 kits, illustrations in ?Profile? series and other period literature all contributed to the creation of a myth.
Most artists rely on existing profiles and information that is available in literature.  If they are not selective with outdated info and unreliable authors, the myth is perpetuated.

Quote
Is the term "AII Brown" completely an invention?

?AII Brown? is Pilawskii?s invention.

AII nitro paints were standard exterior camouflage paints for mixed construction planes before summer 1941.  Only three (3) colours were used for this:  green, light blue and silver.

I bought recently ?Barbarossa Victims? (Kopanski, Mushroom series, published in 2001) ? profiles there confirm the above: only green, blue and gray/silver.  No brown, no disruptive camouflage paterns!  Pilawskii should have used this book!!!

In summer 1941 new matt AMT paints were introduced and gloss AII green and AII light blue were discontinued.

Hornat doesn?t mention AII paints at all, only AMT paints!  

The only brown paint used by VVS was gray-brown AMT-1 and that one from 1943-45.

Quote
Quote
? the popular "Public Debate" at http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948_Albom_Nakrasok.html
The public monologue, do you mean?

Yes, it was a monologue.  EP?s forum is practically dead, no questions, no answers, no discussions.  Is it a sign of a general lack of interest in this subject?

Quote
The inside grey looks darker. Maybe there is a base layer of A-14? I supposed that Zinc Chromate was applied directly on metal.

I have also interpreted interior colour as A-14, but Akanihin, who inspected fragments personally, is saying that it can?t be A-14 and that it is close to AE-9.

Quote
Nice wreck. Is the grey part painted, or natural metal? It's strangely shining after 70 years.

My interpretation would be bare dur-aluminium.  In those areas both AE-9 paint and ALG-1 primer are washed away (disappeared).  In light brown areas only AE-9 paint is washed away, ALG-1 primer survived but with modified colour.

KL
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 09:08:11 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #328 on: July 08, 2010, 10:01:56 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
I have also interpreted interior colour as A-14, but Akanihin, who inspected fragments personally, is saying that it can?t be A-14 and that it is close to AE-9.
I know his idea of Ae-9, darker than my expectations and similar to what can be seen on the photo of inside. But the inside grey looks darker than on the outside. Could this be an effect of the sun exposure? After the loss of the plane, the inside and outside of the piece should have been preserved in the same way.

Quote
bought recently ?Barbarossa Victims? (Kopanski, Mushroom series, published in 2001) ? profiles there confirm the above: only green, blue and gray/silver.  No brown, no disruptive camouflage paterns!  Pilawskii should have used this book!!!

This book was a revelation for me. Before this, photos of planes of immediate prewar were nearly absent.


Quote
EP?s forum is practically dead, no questions, no answers, no discussions.  Is it a sign of a general lack of interest in this subject?
The decay of a forum is always a sad thing. Do you know if some discussion has moved on other forums of English language besides this one?

Massimo


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learstang
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« Reply #329 on: July 09, 2010, 01:17:38 AM »

Thank you Konstantin!  Your answers confirm what I thought - AMT-1 was the only brownish colour ever used on Il-2's, and it was actually a greyish-tan to tan colour.  I still wonder where the myth of that dark brown colour originated - from misinterpretations of black and white photographs I suppose, as for example people mistaking a faded AMT-6 Black for dark brown, as may have also happened with the mythical Dark Green on Il-2's.

Regards,

Jason
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