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Searching for VVS Photos
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Author Topic: Searching for VVS Photos  (Read 210569 times)
warhawk
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« Reply #690 on: February 21, 2021, 09:10:56 PM »

A pair of captured SB photos popped up:


from: German e-bay


from: German e-bay
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learstang
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« Reply #691 on: February 22, 2021, 02:55:52 AM »

Nice! Thank you for posting! That first one, given the 'uniforms' of the Germans, is obviously not in winter, so that must be a (very) light grey finish on that SB - a late model SB (an SB 2M103A), from the streamlined cowlings and the MV-3 turret. That next SB has an interesting paint scheme. A base coat of green(?) with some lighter colours, or perhaps green and other colours have been applied over a lighter paint - it's hard to tell what's going on with this one. I'd like to hear Massimo's take on it.

Regards,

Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

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Psy06
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« Reply #692 on: February 22, 2021, 09:28:13 AM »

Nice! Thank you for posting! That first one, given the 'uniforms' of the Germans, is obviously not in winter, so that must be a (very) light grey finish on that SB - a late model SB (an SB 2M103A), from the streamlined cowlings and the MV-3 turret.

AII/AE-9 light gray, of course. An aircraft of the 221 series type, converted, this is not a late series, actually mid production. The second plane is quite ancient, but also converted. It is possible that all his light surfaces are clad aluminum, because this plane was from the time when the SB was not painted at all. Since its airframe does not require anti-corrosion coatings, and government departments in one way or another strive to save money, I think that it was not completely repainted.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 09:33:32 AM by Psy06 » Logged
warhawk
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« Reply #693 on: February 22, 2021, 01:58:28 PM »

A base coat of green(?) with some lighter colours, or perhaps green and other colours have been applied over a lighter paint - it's hard to tell what's going on with this one. I'd like to hear Massimo's take on it.

Could also be an earlier all-grey machine, with green and black sloppily applied, preserving the insignia and the fin 'flames'  Grin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #694 on: February 22, 2021, 08:50:25 PM »

The second machine is very unusual in its camouflage. I think that the background was AE-8 aluminum, it was predominant in 1938-early 1939, typical of flat-nosed SB,  and is congruent with the dark but shining look of the lower part.
Light grey was also used in 1936-37, but it was a poor paint subject to chipping, and can't be lasted for years.
 I see a three shades camouflage on the wings and probably on the tail, possibly with the shades suggested by the instructions of spring 1941, while I think to see only two colors on the upper part of the fuselage.
I wonder if the color of the number and the leading edge of the tail was yellow.
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Psy06
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« Reply #695 on: February 22, 2021, 10:22:56 PM »

Massimo you are wrong. SB painted with silver paint are incredibly rare. They were painted in light gray about 38 - 40 circa, and from the beginning of mass production until about 37-38, SB airframes were produced using cladding technology, they were not painted at all. Their color is the color of natural metal.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #696 on: February 23, 2021, 07:39:20 AM »

Hi Psy,

for what I see, some prototypes of SB were certainly in natural metal


flat-engines planes built around 1938 have the look of silver-painted planes. No difference in lightness between panels, and between panels and rivets.


Below: a piece of a Soviet bomber shot down by Finnish AA and preserved in the Finnish Museum (courtesy of Jan Vihonen). Traces of ALG-1 yellow primer are visible under the aluminium paint. (courtesy Jan Vihonen)


Eventually, it could be as it was for the planes of the '50s, that were produced in natural metal protected by a clear layer, and then repainted in aluminum at the first trace of corrosion.
But, apart for the prototypes, I wasn't able to find the typical difference in shining between panels on available photos production SB.

Best regards
Massimo

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Psy06
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« Reply #697 on: February 23, 2021, 08:06:25 AM »

I know that. The fact that there is an opportunity to see the silver SB in the real photo as well as genuine parts does not mean that there were many such planes. According to all known information, there were very few such aircraft. I emphasize only about SB specially painted with silver paint. They are a definite anomaly because there is no evidence of a reason for their existence. They were, but they were very few and they appeared under unclear circumstances and also quickly disappeared. The main mass types of SB painting are clad duralumin (unpainted), light gray paint, and after the 1940 green top, blue bottom.

I think, that the rejection of silver paint was due to its poor mechanical strength.
In this photo there is a brand new DB3F painted with silver paint, but as you can see, the surface already looks terrible.


« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 08:47:23 AM by Psy06 » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #698 on: February 23, 2021, 09:27:30 AM »

Hi Psy,
I see, if the aluminum paint had the same bonder of the early grey paint, there is no reason to think that it was more resistant. Perhaps the scratches were less visible than on grey painted planes.
I think that the change that improved the resistance of the paint was the introduction of ALG-1 primer on outer surfaces around 1938 and allowed to return to glossy grey in 1939.
By the way, are there written documents describing the use of unpainted surfaces on SB around 1938?
Regards
Massimo
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Psy06
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« Reply #699 on: February 23, 2021, 07:38:23 PM »

>By the way, are there written documents describing the use of unpainted surfaces on SB around 1938?
I have not heard of this.
Here's the original source for clad, it's from the 1936 SB manual. Here the text is repeated twice, do not be surprised, such a strange book 0_o




Here's an early SB made with clad duralumin. I took this photo, you can believe me, I was there with a magnifying glass all clambered, not a single drop of paint anywhere. It is really unpainted, not outside, not inside. On the steel parts the paint was of course.



For comparison, this is a photo SB of the tail that I gave earlier, it is light gray outside and steel gray inside.



And one more SB, it is interesting because its insides are smeared with some kind of transparent varnish. It is painted externally, but the internal components are mostly unpainted. That's it Smiley


 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 08:11:11 PM by Psy06 » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #700 on: February 23, 2021, 08:46:28 PM »

Those seem to be significant portions of the SB. Has any effort been made restore it (them)? Are these all different wrecks?

Regards,

Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

- Warren William Zevon
Psy06
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« Reply #701 on: February 24, 2021, 07:33:16 AM »

Those seem to be significant portions of the SB. Has any effort been made restore it (them)? Are these all different wrecks?

Regards,

Jason

It is all different. These are all old photos, 1st and 3rd from restorers' storage bases. It is possible that they have already been used for some project. In the Pyshma museum, for example, the SB is made of two or three wrecks. As usual, the restoration is very superficial.



By the way, I discovered an interesting moment, in the SB in Monino, although it was heavily altered by restorers, there is a place in the fuselage where the restorers did not touch anything, and it is also unpainted, that is, the Moninsky SB was also made using the technology of clad duralumin.

In the left half of the photo, the paint on the sides is the work of the restorers, and on the right side is the original state of the aircraft. The skin shows clear varnish as in the previous example, and the airplane frame is not painted.



« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 11:21:17 AM by Psy06 » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #702 on: February 24, 2021, 08:55:28 AM »

Hi Psy,
thank you for having posted all these interesting photos.  It seems that they had not used any primer on internal surfaces, even on those that were painted.
Are the yellowish panels of the third photo from other parts of the plane, from the wings for example?
The plane in Pyshma museum is new for me, it looks very nice but I doubt that underwing pylons are compatible with two-blades propellers.

Regards
Massimo
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Psy06
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« Reply #703 on: February 24, 2021, 11:07:14 AM »

Are the yellowish panels of the third photo from other parts of the plane, from the wings for example?
No, it's fuse skin, it identical with Monino plane. It seems that this center section was used for the SB in Pyshma.




The plane in Pyshma museum is new for me, it looks very nice but I doubt that underwing pylons are compatible with two-blades propellers.

https://mkugmk.ru/ru/

It was assembled from 2-3 planes and, let's say, did not try very hard

« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 11:23:26 AM by Psy06 » Logged
righidan
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« Reply #704 on: February 24, 2021, 01:14:45 PM »

Dear Friends,
   Thank you for all this shared information.
   As always, combining information from different sources is the best way to try to approximate the truth as correctly as possible.
   The information coming from official documents of those years is nicely corroborated by findings of relics.
   So we have both bare aluminum alloys and A-14 for the interiors, and bare aluminum and AE-9 for the exterior.
   It is a well reported fact from secondary sources that airplanes of the prewar years were subjected to repainting.
   Russian friends have directed me to a document that has appeared in VK and that I have translated as best as possible, for its importance: INSTRUCTION for the care of paint-and-lacquer coatings of machines of metal and mixed structures and for the repair of coatings during the operation of machines, of April 1939.
   One of the information we find is the suggestion to repaint the metal airplane exterior using AE-8 aluminum enamel, an enamel that was prepared mixing on the spot LM-15A oil varnish with aluminum powder of 325 mesh fineness or aluminum paste.
   I have placed the translation at the following address for the interested colleagues to read:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SD1TbbknW3v9dc8C87ZGuau-cUUbIkuN/view?usp=sharing
   The interesting fact is that, in the small collection of Russian airplane relics that I have, there is one piece that comes from Germany, and has been preserved in a closet for seventy years.
    It shows light gray on the exterior, covered by aluminum enamel, dark gray in the interior, and traces of yellow primer around some mushroom head rivets and under the plates.
   Moreover, even the red and black of the star have been repainted.


   As Mr. Linevitch says, the aluminum paint adhesion is quite poor, and large parts of gray paint are visible at the borders of this piece.
   I suppose that it is a piece from a bomber, and maybe our Russian friends could tell if it comes from a SB or a DB-3.
   I hope to be able to make a better analysis of its colors in due time.
Regards
Daniele
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Daniele
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