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Author Topic: AML Decals - Silver Markings?  (Read 12452 times)
John Thompson
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« on: April 15, 2008, 02:44:36 AM »

Does anyone know why AML is using silver for numerals and other markings on so many of their recent VVS decal sheets? Is this the result of new research?

John
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2008, 05:48:59 AM »


sadly, they have fallen victim to the 'Finnish Silver Conspiracy'.
I'm surprised that you are not already aware of this problem.

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2008, 11:26:21 AM »

One has to see photos of the originals and decide what it seems, case by case. Some photos really suggest the use of silver, but it's not the rule.
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2008, 12:22:11 PM »

I have two AML set of decals for Lend-Lease planes (Hurricane and P-40) in 1/48 and they are very disappointing.Red Stars with silver borders and also the numbers in the same colour,when the photo reveals this is not the case.The known P-40M "white 93" with a sharkmouth,has all the white parts in silver in one of the sets,rendering it useless in my point of view.Greetings:

Martin
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John Thompson
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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2008, 06:58:30 PM »


sadly, they have fallen victim to the 'Finnish Silver Conspiracy'.
I'm surprised that you are not already aware of this problem.



Yes, I know the "Conspiracy" of which you speak; I'm just searching for the truth, which I know must be "out there". I assume you've read this:
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/portland/971/reference/russian.htm

I don't want to arouse anyone over this, I'd just like to see whether anything new has been discovered on this subject in the past 10 years or so - Kari's article goes back to about 1998. I'm sorry - maybe I just want to be spoon-fed with certainties which aren't possible, and not have to make my own decisions on these very important issues!? Wink

John
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2008, 10:41:55 PM »

I just want to be spoon-fed with certainties which aren't possible, and not have to make my own decisions on these very important issues!

Sorry John ! no free rides here.
only good old-fashioned work!
to quote Winston Churchill :
I can promise you only blood,tears,toil and sweat.
[/color]
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John Thompson
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2008, 12:13:12 AM »



Sorry John ! no free rides here.
only good old-fashioned work!
to quote Winston Churchill :
I can promise you only blood,tears,toil and sweat.
[/color]

Uh-oh - I went and re-read everything I could find on the topic of silver markings, especially as it applies to the La-5, and I think I'm starting to go over to the "Silver Side"... Various sources - Geust, the MBI La-5 book, and various Internet postings - are at least liberal-minded on the subject. Kari Lumppio's information about three approved colours for markings (red, white, and silver) is also pretty convincing, although you're still left to decide which ones were white and which were silver, of course. While Erik P. is pretty firmly on the non-silver side of the debate, there's even a photo on his "Lavochkin Piston-Engined Fighters" CD showing a line-up of La-5FN's, where the reflection from the supposedly-white markings is almost blinding. It's *so* bright that without even thinking about it, your first reaction is "Silver paint!". Now, it's not as if I actually apply decals all that often (my completion rate stinks), but I *think* I'm starting to head towards just accepting the decal sheets as they are, since I have no way of changing them anyway. I'm going to go and put on my silver tin-foil hat now...

But seriously, most of what I've found on this subject is at least 10 years old; again, I was hoping that there might be some new "discoveries" on this topic.

John
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 01:54:11 AM by John Thompson » Logged
Dark Green Man
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2008, 07:28:21 AM »


I think a clarification is is order : I do not believe that AII Aluminum (or 'silver') was used for tactical numbers or borders for stars.
to the best of my knowledge no one has performed a chemical analysis of the P-39's in the museum at Tikkakoski to determine if those stars actually have paint or if it is just bare metal. (after removing the paint)

there certainly is ample proof and evidence for the use of AII Aluminum as an overall finish color prior to the war.
in the case of the I-153 even the Camoflage Directive of 1940 did not eliminate silver undersides of these aircraft even after the war began.

as for silver spinners ; this was popular with a few regiments and even in some geographical areas , but again is there chemical proof for the existence of paint or is it bare metal?


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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2008, 11:07:16 AM »

Quote
to the best of my knowledge no one has performed a chemical analysis of the P-39's in the museum at Tikkakoski to determine if those stars actually have paint or if it is just bare metal. (after removing the paint)

Sorry, but the only idea that restorators and Finnish people that saw the actual plane (including the director of the Finnish museum) are so silly to not distinguish paint from bare aluminium looks insulting for them.
So, it is hardly credible to think that someone removed, by tool , layers of dark blue or white (the original US or British marks) over olive drab or green/grey (the original camo) only to show metallic reflex when he has not a can of aluminium paint.

Quote
as for silver spinners ; this was popular with a few regiments and even in some geographical areas , but again is there chemical proof for the existence of paint or is it bare metal?

So, it is hardly credible to think that Soviet ground crew passed days to remove paint by tool from a spinner that arrived already painted green, grey or black from the factory.
At the end, on unpainted metal surfaces, the shade of rivets is different from that of the aluminium alloy sheet.

Massimo




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John Thompson
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2008, 03:14:58 PM »

Putting aside the issue of tactical numbers and borders for stars, I'm of the belief that silver might have been used for inscriptions, particularly on special series of aircraft (like Valeriy Chkalov Lavochkins) or some (not all) donor inscriptions, to increase the decorative effect. The possibilities for white versus silver are endless in these three applications (numbers, stars, inscriptions). Massimo's suggestion to look carefully at photos, where available, seems to be all we can do. Obviously this question will never be answered easily, 60+ years later, and I guess I was mistaken to ask it, but I think I've learned something - thanks, everyone!

John
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2008, 08:30:11 AM »

So, it is hardly credible to think that someone removed, by tool , layers of dark blue or white (the original US or British marks) over olive drab or green/grey (the original camo) only to show metallic reflex when he has not a can of aluminum paint.

yes, it is an awful lot of work to go through to have silver bordered stars when leaving the original white bordered star is quicker, simpler and easier.
this is why silver bordered stars do not make any sense.
[/color]
So, it is hardly credible to think that Soviet ground crew passed days to remove paint by tool from a spinner that arrived already painted green, grey or black from the factory.
At the end, on unpainted metal surfaces, the shade of rivets is different from that of the aluminum alloy sheet.

one of the biggest supplies in the Lend-lease program is Gasoline, which can be used to strip paint fairly quickly as sometimes was done with the USAAF.
the same thing could have happened in the USSR turning 'days' of work into a few short hours.
as for rivets and panels...the rivet has a dome-shaped head and a panel usually has a single-radius curve so naturally they reflect light in different ways.

John, I believe that the photo at the bottom of page 89 of Red Stars 1 (hardcover) might very well be a photo of just such an occurrence.
I am at a loss to explain any other way the inscription 'Za Leningrad' that was painted on Kaptain A.K. Tatchenko's Pe-2 of the 13 RAP.
[/color]
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 08:38:25 AM by Dark Green Man » Logged

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2008, 10:45:51 AM »

Quote
yes, it is an awful lot of work to go through to have silver bordered stars when leaving the original white bordered star is quicker, simpler and easier.
this is why silver bordered stars do not make any sense.


Quote
one of the biggest supplies in the Lend-lease program is Gasoline, which can be used to strip paint fairly quickly as sometimes was done with the USAAF.
the same thing could have happened in the USSR turning 'days' of work into a few short hours.
as for rivets and panels...the rivet has a dome-shaped head and a panel usually has a single-radius curve so naturally they reflect light in different ways.

So, in 1940 Soviets had silver paint enough to paint thousands of whole planes as SB, I-153 and R-10 on all surfaces, and in 1942 they had to import US gasoline to remove green paint when they wanted to show some silver spinners only?? Roll Eyes
Massimo
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 04:54:47 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
John Thompson
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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2008, 02:24:06 AM »

I notice that on some photos (no examples right now, but I'm sure I could find some links), the "white" paint appears sort of faded, with a streaky look to it. Is it possible (if it's aluminum paint that was really used for these markings) that the aluminum pigment adhered poorly, or oxidized in some way, so that over a relatively short period of time it started to develop this deteriorated appearance?

(We better protect our eyes against the blinding dazzle of all that aluminum paint -? Cool )

John? Wink
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2008, 07:19:33 AM »

Hi John, Smiley
at present time I have not in mind what photos you mean, but I intrerpretate as aluminium a color that changes greatly according to the inclination of the point of view. Accoeding to the perspective, it could also appear somewhat dark.
Massimo
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Apex1701
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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2008, 02:51:18 AM »

Hi guys,

I'd like to add my .02 canadian cents to the discussion.

I think it' s possible that camo was painted over some aluminium color.
Please review the pic I've found lately, the one with the aluminium band (banded 21):
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/captured/banded21.htm

Looking closely with my old eyes it seems that the borders of the painted camo over the alu band are not very straight.
So if planes were repainted with colors how about saving some time and leaving a thin band around the stars?
Maybe faster than repainting all over and and having to redo the stars.

As for the silver borders from the P-39 of the Tikkakoski museum.
Let see what Kari Lumppio wrote in RUSSIAN WW2 SILVER & OTHER COLOURS website:
" Silver borders for VVS stars is a stonehard fact. You can even access the  evidence in Internet. Photos of two very different cases of P-39 Russian  Airacobras with such stars can be found at the following two sites "

Since both links are dead I've done some google search.

First P-39:
Here we can find photos from Tikkakoski:
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/index.htm
Check photo # 11, the one with the big red star
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/p-39_11.htm
and tell me if you see aluminium paint around the stars!
I see only some kind of gray-green over the white borders!!!

Second P-39 (P-39Q-5 serial no 42-20442):
Pictures are from this home page:
http://www.cobrasoverthetundra.com/restoration_page.htm

The photos are here:
http://community.webshots.com/album/16792917UFPOkXdtZk
Check photo p16 and can you see some silver around the red star?

Of course it's only web photos but since Kari Lumppio bases his deduction from them, why not me ;-)

To sum up my random thoughts:
I think it may have been possible that some stars were silver bordered if camouflage colors were painted over silver/aluminium paint.
For now I can't "buy" Mr. Lumppio assertions with only the P-39 pics he used to deduce the certainity of silver borders.

Voila! You got my .02 cents.

BTW very interesting discussion :-))


All the best.

jean
 
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