"Famous" Il-2 'Avenger' nose colour & was it real?

[krofire]

Hi Folks,

I have been doing a bit of digging on the topic of a "famous" late war Il-2 airframe. It had the word "Avenger" within an arrow under the cockpit and was active in the Berlin campaign April 1945 when it was subject of at least one propaganda photo. I can only find two references to it - one is a picture in "War in the Air" 126 whilst another is a side-view artwork in Crowood's 2004 "Ilyushin Il-2 & Il-10 Shturmovik". Seems strange for such a "famous" airframe!

Anyway - the gist of my research concerned the colour of the nose. I found the aircraft featured on the Aeromaster Decal sheet "Shturmoviks" nbr 3. Their artwork features a red nose extendng as far back along the airframe to the exhausts. The Crowood artwork does not, it shows red spinner only. The caption to the "War in the Air" book's photo says that the "front of the nose was painted in the colours of the Air Army". Hmmm - helpful! The photo is indistinct. Can anyone tell me what the nose colour was and how far back it extended? The aircraft was of the 16th Air Army.

A second point - this caption goes on to state that "there's an opinion that the white arrow and word "Avenger" were..... added by a photo-retoucher." Does anyone have any further photo's of this subject (nbr "25") that could confirm or deny this? I intend to model the subject and would hate to create a fictional one!

[krofire]

Thankyou DGM! Intriguing. Just what I was looking for as the photo featured is much clearer. However Erik's artwork showing no Red on the fuselage.? Aeromaster may have read too much into the "War in the Air" caption? Howerver Erik does not have a red Spinner contradicting "War in the Air". This remains a quandary as both the other sources predate Erik's work and both agree at least the spinner was red... Who to believe? Closer inspection of this photo shows a very sharp demacation line to the camo on the lower nose under the first exhaust pipe. Erik has interpreted this as Brown camouflage but it easily could be evidence for the alleged red nose. Probably an inspection of the original negatives may supply more information - a luxury we don't have. Dark red over dark brown is going to be difficult to spot.

Erik says that there have been "many photograph captions and attributations made of this aircraft, but to date nothing specific has been confirmed" but goes on to speculate that Berlin in 1945. However his work postdates the "War in the Air" book (published 2005) so he was not working in a complete vacuum - was he unaware of their other analysis? He goes on to suggest the aircraft was too clean but does not say the photo was retouched - rather the real aircraft was retouched for the photo. This is credible as photo-retouching tends to be easy to spot from the war years. Since Erik says these are stills from a 16mm film then this must rule out photo-retouching. However if this is a still from a movie it seems remarkabley clear. The "War in the Air" book author seems unaware of this as does anyone suggesting the photo was retouched. Difficult to know who to believe.? Can anyone tell me if there is anywhere where we can see this movie online? Are there any other books/online resources featuring these stills? Any proof this was from a movie at all?

I am not sure why a 1945 'arrow' would have wooden wings - seems puzzling. Do we know how many wooden-winged arrows were still around by the time of the Berlin campaign? Metal wings had been in production for a year by this point..... Guess it is impossible to tell but this is a real aircraft and I will model it with metal wings, a red nose, and let the debate rage... I'll post the photo's when done. Cheers.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
I have looked at these photos with attention.
The thing that astonish me is that the plane with writing is photographed much more clearly than the planes aside, in much better light and focus.
In my idea, it's the photo of a real plane, but taken separately and glued on the original image of planes over Berlin.
Massimo

[krofire]

DGM/MT - cheers again. This is all good. The debate over at the 12 o'clock high forum was certainly heated! I'll not repeat it here but, point taken. We should always check for ourselves. In this case I think that I can see why these photo's lead to such debate. I don't think the propagandists in the Soviet Union during the GPW had Photoshop so the idea of them being able to blend in aircraft to these shots so well seems odd. Given the enormous variability between the shots I would take another and far simpler guess - they were taken by different photographers on different days. Yes, they show the same flight of aircraft with their white tails but I don't think that all the photo's were taken on the same date. Some look like stills from a 16mm movie. Some are of really bad quality. Some are exceptionally clear. The clearest showing our old friend "Avenger".

It is utter speculation but I suspect the photographers went to the front in the closing stages of the Berlin campaign for some stirring propoganda photos and were disappointed by the result. Dull aircraft and poor photo's. So they tried again with a better quality camera (maybe even a captured German one??) and got the ground crew to freshly paint up on of the aircraft to make a better photo. This may account for some of the photo's, but....

....a study of two of the photo's reveal one simply to be a close up of the other (clearer) one. They are identical. The fuzzy version shows no Arrow. The clear photo shows the arrow. These two photo's are probably the clearest evidence for the claimed retouch. If it is retouch then it is damn good. Quite remarkable because the touched up version is so incredibley clear. I feel dazed and confused now. Should probably sleep on it. But it looks as if the Aeromaster White 25 may not have existed after all. I must say I am disappointed!

It is a fascinating debate but I am none the wiser as to the 'red-nose-or-no-red-nose' debate! Seems academic now.

[krofire]

OK - slept on it:




I brightened the fuzzy image and cropped the bright image and stuck them side by side. It reveals that both photo's are doctored and the bright version also appear to be a montage. The bombed ruins under the aircraft do not match the horizon or the countryside beyond. Once this distraction is removed I focussed on the differences between the two.

The mystery for me was exactly why the "touched-up" "Avenger" was so GOOD. Then it hits me. This may have been a real aircraft and it was not touched up afterall. We assumed the touch-up ADDED the "Avenger" arrow. We never questioned the more obvious solution - that these markings were airbrushed out in other copies of the photo. The sunshine on the fields beyond the aircraft indicate a part-sunny day which is consistent with the sunshine reflecting of the upper wing, wing root and tail surfaces. The dark fuselage patches are not consistent with this photo. A very close examination of the right-hand photo shows hard demarcation lines where a darker colour was applied over the photo to obscure details on nose and fuselage.

The giveaway is the fact that none of the aircraft pictured have numbers on them suggesting that they were removed to obscure their identities. Who knows why? The position of the White 25 is consistent with the picture of White 12 from the same Unit. None of the other photo's of aircraft from this unit show an aircraft with the white tipped undercarriage sponsons.

I indicate on the marked-up copy enclose where the touch ups have happened. The Rudder balance appears to have vanished in one photo. The tip of a propellor for an out-of-shot aircraft has also been removed. Cloud was added to the right-hand photo. I believe the rudder's trim tab was white but it is not clear if it was striped. The striping may just be shadows from internal ribbing. That remains a little mystery.

[John Thompson]

I had started to think the same thing - the image without the arrow is the retouched photo. I even tried the same experiment with changing the brightness and contrast of the photo after saving it, but I didn't get the same mottled effect when I tried it - possibly due to different software? The stumbling block is trying to guess why they would have removed the markings, though!

John

[krofire]

I actually have a bit more evidence on this matter. See below. I looked again at the "War in the Air" photo and - lo-and-behold - it is acually a different photo taken within a few moments of the other.



Unless we are to believe that the photo-retoucher bothered to retouch two photo's in identical fashion then we are left to assume that this is a genuine aircraft. Look at the "Avenger" arrow on both photo's. Absolutely identical. Even if the propogandists had wanted to retouch two photo's the chances of them doing such a perfect and identical job on two photo's is extremely remote. The only difference betwen the photo's is a mysterious white blob under the arrow on the right-hand photo. This photo also sheds more light on the striped rudder tab - it definitely looks as if it was really striped. I guess Aeromaster may have that one right.

By the way, the photo suggests that the aircraft immediately behind our subject also had its tactical code airbrushed out. Also the right-hand photo suggests that there is a black blob (courtesy of our retoucher?) obscuring the side of the nose. My thinking now is that these photo's were staged at the end of the war for propoganda purposes the photo's have subsequently been hacked around for various purposes. I found the full montage photo again in an old Time Life booked "The Epic of Flight - The Soviet Airforce at War". The caption was even more specific as it dates the photo to April 30th - the day Soviet Troops hoisted the red banner over the Reichstag.

I was interested in a comment by Chris Wauchop when he modelled this subject at http://www.hyperscale.com/galleries/2002/il2m3cw_2.htm (thanks DGM). He said the photo he had was not clear enough about the accuracy of the red nose. That debate should continue!

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Krofire,
thank you for finding two different images of the plane. 
So, it looks that the arrow and slogan are real.
Again, the first plane looks much clearer than the other ones on the background, possibly it had freshly repainted white markings. Who knows if it bore some lighter camo, at least on the nose, that puts in better evidence the details of the cowling side?
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

so it seems to me that much of the questions about foreground vs. background aircraft are explained by it being 16 mm movie film vs. 35 mm print film.

It looks unconvincing to me. The film is not so clever to know how the lenses are focused, it just reacts to the quantity of light incoming on it.
The fading with distance due to the athmosphere is strong only when ranges of kilometers are involved.
Exceptionally, a cloud could project his shadow on a plane and leave another one fully lightened.
Probably the differences , in general, are due to the fading of paint.
Massimo

[marluc]

Hello everyone:

Excellent thread gentlemen.The last photo posted by DGM is just the same as one posted by Krofire,this one (with the arrow and number "25")looks quite retouched in comparison with the one with just the"25".
Remarkably,the only bird to have a number is the one in the foreground,quite unusual.Was this a normal practice in other combat squadrons to leave several aircrafts without bort numbers?
Best regards:

Martin

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
I agree with those thinking that a white arrow was removed on this image. I think to see traces of it .
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all,
here is a post by Konstantin Lesnikov; he asked me to insert it, because of the closure of subscription due to the known situation.

Hi Massimo,
I would appreciate it if you post following on Sovietwarplanes forum:
 
 
Analysis and all the photos that were posted on this tread, clearly show that the "famous Il-2" markings (bort No 25 and personal markings "Mstitel" with the lightning) are real and not retouched.? All other photos which show this Shturmovik without? the markings are actually retouched.? Markings on these photos were simply erased or "censored".
 
I did some Internet search using google, google.ru and their "kartinki" and I also checked some older posts from sukhoi.ru forum.? Following is the summary of my finds:
 
1.? ? Author of the original series of photographs is Mark Redkin, famous soviet war corespondent and photographer.
2.? ? the photo-montage posted on EP page is known as "Nad Berlinom", (something like "Over the Berlin").? It was probably made and published first time in 1975.? Other, lower quality copies, usually censored, were probably published between 1945 and 1975?
3.? ? Original series of photographs was taken on April 30th, 1945.? There is no doubt where, the title tells it.
4.? ? Airplanes belonged to 16th VA, more precisely 198th ShAD.? Regiment is not known, but airplanes belonged to the squadron commanded by Senior lieutenant V. Bondarenko.
 
Following are my comments, links, open questions etc.:

During the war, Mark Redkin (1908?1987) was a photo correspondent for TASS and "Frontovaya Ilustraciya".? Redkin is author of many iconic images of the GPW and post-war Soviet era. Later in his life Redkin had a status of "Заслуженный работник культуры" (Honoured Worker of Culture).

Galleries with Redkin's photos can be found on following links:

http://www.avia-n-aero.ru/photo.php?category_id=58&parent_id=3

http://visualrian.ru/bylines/item/99

http://fotosoyuz.ru/ru/catalog/&cntvat_fgrc=128&png=284966&vqFrnepu=247356039&cntvat_fgneg=0?paging_curPage=1&искать=Редькин%20Марк%20(1908-1987)&newSearchFlag=1

http://victory.rusarchives.ru/index.php?p=41&author_id=120

You may page through these photos just to get an idea how much propaganda and art was involved in Redkin's photos.? You may also get an idea how often Redkin had used photo-montage or retouch.

Following war time photo shows Redkin and his camera (from:? ? http://www.flickr.com/photos/13927522@N00/71830942 ):

 

Massimo please insert Attachment Redkin and Leica

 

In comments posted on Flickr you will find that camera is identified as Leica III with 135 telephoto lens.? Telephoto lens may explain perspective distortion (planes look closer to each other than they really were) and blurred background (limited depth of field) on some photos.

 

http://visualrian.ru/images/item/608 is useful for dating photos.? It gives the date when photos are made as 30 April 1945.? It also shows how crude retouch can be.

http://sov-photo.livejournal.com/70374.html provides context for 'Nad Berlinom" photo-montage:? it states that image was published in "Soviet Photo" magazine № 05 from 1975.? It is possible that photo-montage was made for the thirtieth anniversary of the Victory and the battle of Berlin.? Something that could be checked on Russian forums.? Although this work should be seen as an art photography piece, it is clear that Redkin had used original negatives and published them as a better quality image.
Following is a high res scan of "Nad Berlinom" available at? http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/more7007/view/161486?page=7 or http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3104/more7007.12/0_276ce_18ace6cb_orig

 

Massimo please insert Attachment 0_276ce_18ace...

 

Important info on units comes from sukhoi.ru forum member Tora:? http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showpost.php?s=b7d5c57cee474df277efa04b388bf140&p=1158824&postcount=132.? Image posted by Tora looks like a clip from 1945 army magazine.

 

Massimo please insert Attachment 198-%FF%20%...


Partially translated text:

 

Air Attacks

Fierce fightings? in the centre of Berlin were still going on when General-colonel Rudenko's airmen? moved to city's airfields....

Top photos:? Shturmovik squadron led by senior lieutenant V. Bondarenko during combat action over Berlin.? Bottom - results of soviet airmen attacks:? enemy's strongholds in flames.

...

Bottom - Guards Colonel V. Belousov greets Senior lieutenant V. Bondarenko for excellent results of air attack on enemy's strongholds in the centre of Berlin.

Photos by Captain M. Redkin and Sr lieutenant A. Arhipov

 

http://www.allaces.ru helps to identify Units: General-colonel Rudenko commanded 16 Air army (over 3000 airplanes), and Colonel Belousov commanded 198 Shturmovik air division.? 198 ShAD consisted of: 41ShAp, 567ShAP and 945ShAP (from http://www.allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/d/shad198.dat).

 

This clip also shows the third known photo of an Il-2 with all the markings.? Photos and text celbrate victory, cold war hasn't started and markings are not censored.

 

IMHO 1: in the case Velichko vs Pilawskii, markings of this particular Il-2? can not be used against Erik.

IMHO 2: Erik's comments posted on http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/DigitalModeling/monthly_profile/june06/june06.html like:? "Unit, Location and Pilot unknown" or "The surrounding landscape, to my eye, suggests eastern Germany" or "but the poor quality of the image (a still from 16mm movie film, in fact) makes any definitive statement impossible" don't make sense considering what is available on the Internet.

 

I hope all this helps.

Konstantin

[John Thompson]

Excellent information - thank you, Massimo and Konstantin! I checked several of the links in the post, and came to this one in particular:
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showpost.php?p=995523&postcount=27
This was linked in the post by "Tora" on the sukhoi.ru forum.

Thanks again!

John

[Massimo Tessitori]

 
Hi all, another mail by Konstantin Lesnikov:

compared photo from 1945(?) magazine clip with other photos from this series and it turned out that 1945 photo is clearly a photo-montage.  "Avenger" is glued onto the photo showing a formation of Il-2s flying in front of the tall building.
 
Please insert both attachments here!!!
 



So, there are two photo-montages, one from 1945(?) and one from 1975(?) and both attempt to show this particular plane flying over Berlin.  I would qualify 1945 photo-montage as a propaganda and 1975 photo-montage as an art photography.
Still, there are two photos showing "Avenger" with all the markings and the original background and this should be enough to confirm that the markings are real.
 
The entire set of photos was made for propaganda purposes and it was used and abused in postwar years many, many times.  It is an excellent example of how widespread "censorship" was in the cold war era Soviet Union.  Bort numbers were seen as military IDs and were routinely erased, even from GPW photos.  "Avenger" inscription was probably erased as politically incorrect.  From what I know, there wasn't an official directive to erase tactical numbers.  Authors, editors and publishers felt safer or correct when they erased them.
 
Regards,
Konstantin

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi DGM, 
I think that the marks are real, only the presence of the plane on that flight was false. Krofire has found many photos of the same plane with exactly the same markings, without detectable errors.
Massimo