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Author Topic: Hasegawa 1/72 I-16  (Read 6504 times)
John Thompson
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« on: June 15, 2009, 12:54:45 AM »

Wow - check out this amazingly detailed article on building the Hasegawa 1/72 I-16 - lots of information which can be applied to the ICM kits, and the photography is excellent:
http://www.ratomodeling.com/finished/i16/hasegawa_i16_72.html

John
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 05:59:39 AM »


WOW !
that is definitely a 'Master Class' on how to build an I-16.

it would seem that the Hasegawa kit has a major mistake , no ski troughs.

it also looks like Revell 66 is a good 'out-of-the-bottle' IMUP and Humbrol 47 a good AII Blue for 1/72 nd scale.
what do you 1/72 nd scale modelers say ?
[/color]
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John Thompson
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 11:03:44 PM »



it also looks like Revell 66 is a good 'out-of-the-bottle' IMUP and Humbrol 47 a good AII Blue for 1/72 nd scale.
what do you 1/72 nd scale modelers say ?
[/color]


As a 1/72 kinda guy, I'll throw in my two cents' worth on the subject of AII Blue, but with a caution: There are forums where any discussion about colour, no matter what air force you're talking about, sets off loud alarms with the moderators, and I think we've all witnessed (or even taken part in) colour discussion threads where the main colour seen by most of the participants was RED. That being said, here's my very humble opinion, with as much reference as I can present.

I don't think Humbrol 47 is a very good match at all, but I say that without having any of that paint to test. What I do have is Humbrol 65, and I think it's a better match than Hu 47.

First of all, this is based on Kari Lumppio's actual comparison of the underside colours of parts of a LaGG-3 and a MiG-3, preserved in a Finnish museum. Scroll down about halfway, to the section headed "Underside Blue":
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/portland/971/reference/russian.htm
Mr. Lumppio says:
"Much to our surprise we found light blue on both the LaGG-3 and the? MiG-3 was extremely similar. FS35352 was extremely close match to the blue on LaGG-3 (wooden/fabric surface). The blue on MiG-3 was also very, very close to that, both on wooden and metal surfaces. In fact the blues are so close that they most probably are same paint."
So, there you have it - someone who has actually seen these original artifacts, and has done a careful colour comparison with his FS595 fan deck. To me, that kind of evidence is impossible to argue with.

Next: I applied a sample of Humbrol 65 to a piece of white styrene, allowed it to dry, and then compared it with FS35352. What I saw with my tired old eyes was close, certainly close enough for me, so Hu 65 is what I'll probably use in the future for AII Blue (but certainly not for AMT-7), although I might try to adjust it to bring it a tiny bit closer. Polite (and documented) comments are welcome - mature discussion of these subjects is how we all learn...? Wink

This Humbrol colour chart may also be helpful, with the usual warnings about variations in colour quality from one monitor or printer to another:
http://scale-models.nl/Colour_Charts.aspx?Id=Humbrol_colour_chart

John
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marluc
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2009, 12:25:24 AM »

Thanks a lot John for the chart,it?s a very good reference.Greetings:

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2009, 02:14:51 PM »


Hi  John,  Smiley
Quote
I don't think Humbrol 47 is a very good match at all, but I say that without having any of that paint to test. What I do have is Humbrol 65, and I think it's a better match than Hu 47.

Quote
"Much to our surprise we found light blue on both the LaGG-3 and the  MiG-3 was extremely similar. FS35352 was extremely close match to the blue on LaGG-3 (wooden/fabric surface). The blue on MiG-3 was also very, very close to that, both on wooden and metal surfaces. In fact the blues are so close that they most probably are same paint."
So, there you have it - someone who has actually seen these original artifacts, and has done a careful colour comparison with his FS595 fan deck. To me, that kind of evidence is impossible to argue with.

Next: I applied a sample of Humbrol 65 to a piece of white styrene, allowed it to dry, and then compared it with FS35352. What I saw with my tired old eyes was close, certainly close enough for me, so Hu 65 is what I'll probably use in the future for AII Blue (but certainly not for AMT-7), although I might try to adjust it to bring it a tiny bit closer. Polite (and documented) comments are welcome - mature discussion of these subjects is how we all learn... 


I made a comparison of  FS35352 with Humbrol colors some years ago, and the closer match to my eyes was the russian bue 115. a bit darker and less green than 65. Unfortunately this is out of catalogue. Cry
Being from an original piece, this color FS35352 is certainly true, but one could fear that some component has become a bit yellow. I would take it as a close base, and subtract a bit of yellow.

Before 115, I remember that Humbrol had another line of colors, including a set of 6 for VVS; there was a bit lighter and less green light blue paint. I don't know if it was real, but I think it was not too bad. It was more or less close to 47 , if I remember well.
I found some cans of Air superiority blue of Molak that gave the idea to be a close match; unfortunatey the quality of the paint itself was not so good.

About the linked color chart: this is an useful trace, no doubt, but I usually use Humbrol paints, and the chips on the screen doesn't match well the shades of the cans.
47, in particular, should look nuch lighter and a bit more violet of what I see on my screen.

Unfortunately, I have not a good match in Hunbrol catalogue to suggest. Perhaps a mix of 47 and 65 could be good, or 65 with a bit of French blue. But I don't like mixtures: they change their shade after one layer, and repaintings are difficult.
To simplify things, I think that 65 is an acceptable match.

Any ideas?

Massimo
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John Thompson
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2009, 10:11:33 PM »

Hi Massimo!  Smiley Yes, I remember the Humbrol paint series you describe - they were called "Humbrol Authentics". I actually had two or three of the sets (boy, I must be really old!), and amazingly, I still have the two most important ones from the VVS set. These are "Topside Green" (Humbrol HT-1) and "Underside Blue" (HT-2). This Underside Blue colour is slightly darker than Hu 65, and a bit less green, but still not a bad match for FS35352.

Checking a bit further (and I hate to say this!) but an even closer match to FS35352 seems to be Xtracolor X214 - Luftwaffe RLM 78 Hellblau!  Wink

John
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marluc
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 12:30:47 AM »

Hello Massimo and John:

In my humble opinion,H65 looks a little bit green to resemble AII Blue;but with drops H47 should get closer.Anyway,with such evidence,Kari Lumppio?s point of view is almost unquetionable.I used H65 (with a drop of blue) as Industrial Metal Primer and looked good,at least to me.
By the way,which Humbrol colour is the closest match to AII Green? I know that H114 is out of catalogue too.Thanks in advance.
Greetings:

Martin
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John Thompson
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2009, 02:12:40 AM »


By the way,which Humbrol colour is the closest match to AII Green? I know that H114 is out of catalogue too.Thanks in advance.
Greetings:

Martin


How about Humbrol 150? I remember reading a post by someone whose opinion is well respected on this subject (Kari Lumppio again? I wish I could remember for sure) recommending Hu 150 as the upper colour for the MiG-3, so I immediately bought a tinlet of that in case I ever finish my Hobby Boss MiG-3!? Wink

Also, check the link to KL's writeup from DejaNews, reposted on Fortune City, in my post earlier in this thread. He has quite a lot to say about VVS greens, including the fact that they varied considerably! His FS595 selection for the MiG-3 upper colour was 34130, and to my eye, Humbrol 150 is as close to a perfect match as you'll find, I think. Model Master 1714 is almost the same, by the way, for those who like Model Master enamels. My old tinlet of HT-1 (Humbrol Authentic Topside Green) is somewhat darker and less olive than Hu 150.

John
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 02:49:44 AM by John Thompson » Logged
Dark Green Man
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2009, 06:34:39 AM »


to me Humbrol 65 seems too green , that is why I would not recommend it for undersides.
I'm also surprised to learn that #47 is called Sea blue if it is in reality lighter that the digital chip on-screen.
it seems like it should be called Sky blue as US Sea Blue (ANA 606/607/623) is much darker.
(if that is the color it is intended to reproduce)
it's also reassuring to find that Humbrol 65 is good for something.
[/color]
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John Thompson
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2009, 01:50:28 AM »

Seems we're not the only ones scratching our heads over AII Blue:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_12397_start_40.html

John
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John Thompson
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2009, 02:15:53 AM »

Here's the Scalemodels.ru colour chart "Wiki" page:
http://scalemodels.ru/wiki/%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%82

(Translation can be done using the Babel Fish "Translate a web page" function)

Note that one formula for AII Blue given in this table is 50% Humbrol 65, 50% Humbrol 47, as was suggested earlier in this thread by both Martin and Massimo.

I love this topic!  Cheesy

John
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2009, 02:54:14 AM »


I'm surprised no one has mentioned using #89 Middle Blue
(with white added for scale effect)
[/color]
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marluc
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2009, 01:29:28 PM »

Note that one formula for AII Blue given in this table is 50% Humbrol 65, 50% Humbrol 47, as was suggested earlier in this thread by both Martin and Massimo.
I?ll try this formula as soon as I get H47,thanks John.

Quote
I'm surprised no one has mentioned using #89 Middle Blue
(with white added for scale effect)

Which paint brand? Humbrol?

Greetings:

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2009, 04:27:50 PM »

Hi all Smiley
John, the H150 is written, as a second choice, on the color chart of the MiG-3 page. The first choice was H151, but it is out of catalogue now. I don't know if this was the page written by the guy "whose opinion was respected", in such case, thank you.
I remember HT-1, probably it was for AMT green. I remember a very light grey too, and a lemon yellow and a bright red that I suspect unuseful. Perhabs a brown? I'm not sure, but it would be in linewith the beliefs of that age.
By the way, the wiki page of your link is very interesting.
It would be nice to add chips and a column with typical uses of each of those paints (years, type of planes and typical color association) and links to photos of wrecks. It would grow much, I know...

DGM, in my idea H89 Middle blue is too dark and saturated. Besides, if one find two similar colors to mix (two light blues), the result can't be too dependant on proportions; if one mix very different colors (blue and white) the result is strongly dependant by exactness of proportions, mixing etc.
Humbrol 65 should be a fair match for the hellblau of German bombers (RLM 65, do I remember well?).

Martin, Humbrol has killed a lot of interesting colors. Pity...

The page on the Hasegawa model on building is exceptional. A lot of good work on that small kit. I would be unable to do such small details, I fear. Only, all those images are too heavy for my slow connection, so I stopped the download.

Massimo


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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2009, 06:05:47 AM »

Quote
I'm surprised no one has mentioned using #89 Middle Blue
(with white added for scale effect)

Which paint brand? Humbrol?


Yes, I meant Humbrol #89 Middle Blue.
my apologies for not being more specific, but since the discussion was about Humbrol paint it would be wise to specify another brand if that was what was meant.

upon closer inspection of the paint tests shown in the link , Humbrol #89 is actually there.
[/color]
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"when we lose the right to be different, we lose the priviledge to be free"--Charles Evans Hughes
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