Question on I-16 by Bert Andermann

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi, 
I had a look again to the photos.
In my idea, the base color of the plane can't be silver.
Besides, if it's an aerobatic team, it can't be light grey, the planes would be scarcely visible on the background of the sky. It has to be a bright color.
Besides, on one photo, we see that the shadow projected on the upper wing by low sun doesn't extend on the star, that reflects independantly of the fact to be on light.
So, I'm prone to think that the planes were painted gloss red; this would justify the replacement of the color of the star with silver.
Such a color profile was drawn on Russian sources for one I-180 prototype too.
Comments?
Massimo

[marluc]

Hello Massimo:

So, I'm prone to think that the planes were painted gloss red; this would justify the replacement of the color of the star with silver.

In my humble opinion,if the planes were painted gloss red,the colour shade should be darker than the one shown in the pictures.I think that the plane is painted gloss grey (not AEh-9) or silver grey;I agree with John that it?s a special colour scheme.The stars could be gloss red but without a black line;this feature,if present,should be very thin.
Greetings.

Martin

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Martin

In my humble opinion,if the planes were painted gloss red,the colour shade should be darker than the one shown in the pictures.

On this base, one can think that stars should be darker than the "grey " background, but we see them as lighter. 
Gloss doesn't mean 'white'. Besides the plane surface is highly gloss too, so it should appear even lighter than gloss red.

On the second photo, the star over the (glossy) wing appears white even where the wing appears dark. A gloss finish of a red star can't explain this. In my idea, the star reflects the sky on the background because it's silver.

On photos, in general, red can appear of any shade, from black to white, depending on the filters.
the third photo, the closest red star (on shadow) appears medium grey on the background of a dark green wing. So, it is likely that red surfaces on sunlight should appear light grey.

In my idea, red is not only compatible with the photos, but it's a logical choice for an aerobatic plane both on the base of visibility and ideological considerations.
Besides, a red background can explain why the stars appear silver or white instead than red: they really are so, else they are invisible. Any other color on the bakground, as blue or grey, can't explain this replacement, being compatible with red stars.

Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
another mail by K. Lesnikov:

Hi Massimo,
 
Red overall with silver stars was suggested on scalemodels.ru forums in the first response by A. Firsov.? He has also noted that white colour of the fuselage stars probably represent reflection.
 
Several photoshop experiments tried to show what heppens with red and gray if we want to simulate film which turns red into white.? The conclusion was gray (or silver-gray) overall with red stars.? The problem is that, at least on the formation photo, the film doesn't turn chase (photographer's) airplane red star into white.? And to my eye, the wing star on the nearest "Krasnay Pyaterka" I-16 is the same shade of gray.

A better scan of the formation photo would help.? Do you have it?? Or any other photo from the series?
 
IMHO when interpreting colours from these photos we should bare in mind following:
Low light source - long shadows and strong reflections.? Probably early morning of a bright winter day.? Have you noticed tail skies?? The fields on the ground are snow covered (probably?).
Formation photo was taken with normal film (panchromatic film?), not the one that turns red into white
Photo of the single airplane from above may not belong to the series - I can't descerne dorsal camera mount on this airplane.
Bottom line:? this one is realy tough to interpret - several schemes, including red with silver stars, are possible.
 


To answer the question from your previos e-mail:? I don't have any more comments on EP's Art Deco I-16s page, but I am planing to write some comments/review of his book.
 
Cheers,
Konstantin

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for your post.
I agree with the considerations on the light condition and type of film, (and tail ski) but not with the conclusion.
The upper wing stars could be scarcely visible on the photos from aside because they reflect the (red?) fuselage side. In the photo from above-rear, they appear light because they reflect the sky.
I would know more about the simulations made with Photoshop that led to the conclusion of red stars.
I suggest, if one has time to, another simulation: to paint two models with both the hypothized schemes, gloss finish, and to photograph them under the same light conditions.

Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,?
here is from K. Lesnikov:

Hi Massimo,
 
I agree with your ideas, Red overall + silver stars is a possibility.? But I think that some sort of gray or silver-gray with red stars is also possible.
 
My first interpretation (standard scheme consisting of light gray AE-9 with red stars, a "I-153 scheme") turned out to be wrong.? There were no Type 24 Ishaks factory painted in light gray!? ?
 
Something that I mentioned in my first post and what I still believe is valid is that stars were much more reflective than the base colour - almost as polished steal ring on the engine cowling. Weather the base colour was matt/metallic and the stars were glossy, or the base colour was glossy and the stars were mirror like silver - I don't know.? ?
 
Hopefully somebody in Russia will find somewhere, in old newspapers for example, a description of these airplanes.? ?

Cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

 Hi,?
from K. Lesnikov:
 
 

Attached are two "Krasnaya pyaterka" photos in slightly better resolution.? ?I found them at:
 
http://photo.strizhi.info/v/Perst-21/aerobatic/I-16+Serov+flight.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/photoarch/view/92831?page=19

 

both photos are from Dmitriy Grinyuk collection (he is actually selling high rez scans).? You may post these two photos on sovietwarplanes.com forum.? They may be useful to interpret the colour.

Another great Russian forum, but more oriented toward history - people, units, events etc, is AIF (aviation history forum).? Many well known authors are members there.? Check the last post http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/co/133663.htm .? ?Original Techn Description for I-16!!!!? Download seems to be painfully slow, but it is something we were waiting for for long time.

Regards,

Konstantin

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
thank you very much for these new images of the I-16s.  What does Krasnaya pyaterka mean exactly? Something about red? Is this their official name? If so, there is no longer any doubt that planes were painted red.
 
On the larger image, I think to see that the outer wing, stabilizator leading edges and the front of the spinner were painted with a lighter color, but I've no idea of which one. It hasn't the same shade and metallic shining of the stars and windshield frames, it isn't light enough to be white and doesn't appear on the already published image from the other side. Could it be a shine on the highly polished surface? But the way how it disappear on the root of the stabilizer should appear different. I suspect that they are yellow painted parts.
Note that the leg of the tail skid looks very light. What color is it supposed to be? Light blue, metal?
On the forth plane, it looks to see a number 4 on the tail, but I suppose that it's only a defect of the negative.

Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

From K. Lesnikov:

Hi Massimo,

Pyaterka means team of five players - like a hockey team. I would translate "Krasnaya pyaterka" as "the Red Fives"

This aerobatic team existed from 1936 to 1940 and many famous pilots were members of the team. They used different I-16s over the time. Original 1936 planes were painted in bright red with black engine cowlings and no stars. Later, planes were painted in silver with black trimming. There is a photo in Armada I-16 showing pilot Yakushin in front of silver plane. Photo in our tread shows 1940 team. It seems that nobody knows how these airplanes were painted.

Larger photo is posted on "Strizhi" web page - modern-times successors of the "Krasnaya pyaterka".

I-16 manual is unfortunately poorly scaned, but still extremely interesting.

Regards,
Konstantin

[Massimo Tessitori]

Again from K. Lesnikov:

Hi Massimo,
One correction: "Krasnaya Pyaterka" publicly performed for the first time on May 1st parade 1935 (not 1936). They flew on planes similar to the second prototype made specially for that occasion. Planes had American Wright Cyclone enginesm

Konstantin

[Massimo Tessitori]

Again from K. Lesnikov:

Hi Massimo,
 

On several occasions I-16s were made specially for "Krasnaya pyaterka".? Not only in spring 1935 for their first public appearance, but also later.? Planes were made lighter, armament was removed and, of course, planes were painted in non-standard schemes - red and silver dominated.
 
Check post by Sulla at? http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_12538.html for all modifications made for aerobatic team.? These modified planes were unofficially known as "reds".? Following excerpt explains this:
 
 
"... ряд самолетов, не имеющих обозначений, получал различные видоизменения с целью облегчения конструкции.

На отдельных И-16 устанавливались колеса из электрона с облегченным пневматиком, облегченные бронеспинки, капоты по типу И-15бис, но укороченные, с отдельными патрубками Облегчение составляло до 230 кг. Все эти работы однако не нашли отражения в серийных самолетах. Использовано было облегчение лишь для серии пилотажных И-16, предназначенных для демонстрационных полетов. По документации, эти машины, полетный вес которых обычно не превышал 1490 кг, проходили как ?красные?.

Это и были специальные самолеты для ?красных пятерок? (звезды серебристого цвета), с которых снималось вооружение (не всегда) и даже часть оборудования и приборов. Время виража этих самолетов составляло 12,3 секунды против обычных 15-16 секунд. В конце 1937 года работы по облегчению такого рода было решено прекратить. Однако некоторое количество пилотажных ?красных? И-16 было заводом выпущено и использовалось в воинских округах для демонстрационных полетов."

 

This seems to refer to 1937-1938.? In his new book about polikarpov's combat airplanes ("Korol istrebitelei"), on pages 340 and 341 Maslov writes:

 

"I-16 were equipped with the new powerful engines also for the traditional November parade.? According to decree of the Ministry of Aviation Industry from October 25, 1939, for the demonstration flight on November 07 over the Red Square "12 I-16 with M-62 engines are to be flown to Moscow.? Painting (finishing) to be made in red colour, armament not to install" (quoted from the decree)"

 

It is quite possible that photos posted in our tread show these I-16s.? In that case photos may have been taken in winter 1939/40.? ?

 

Attached is famous 1939 poster and photo + profile of Type 10 which belonged to Krasnaya Pyaterka, probably in 1938.

 

Cheers,

Konstantin

Images will follow

[Massimo Tessitori]

From K. Lesnikov:
 

Sulla's post translation:
 
"... A number of planes, which didn't get specific Type number, received various modifications the goal of which was to lighten the airframe.

Some I-16s were completed with Mg aloy (Elektron) wheels with lighter pneumatics, lightweight back armor, engine cowling similar to one used on I-15bis but with shorter individual exhausts.  Weigth savings totalled up to 230 kg.  These modifications were not utilised in production aircraft.  Modifications were utilized only in a series of aerobatic I-16s, intended for demonstration flights.  In documentation, these machines, whose flying weight usually didn't exceed 1490 kg, were refered as ?the reds?.
 
These were, actually, special planes for the ?Krasnaya pyaterka? team (with silver colour stars), in which  armament and even some of the equipment and instruments were sometimes removed . Turn time of these aircraft was 12.3 seconds against the usual 15-16 seconds.  In late 1937 it was decided to stop all such works on lightweight I-16.  However, a number of aerobatic ?red? I-16s was produced and they were used in military districts for demonstration flights."
 
 
"I-16 made by Zavod No 39 in Moscow had black engine cowlings. Such freedom of the plant initially aroused discontent of the Army, but later engine cowlings were painted in black even in some units.
 
Among the unusual color schemes, the most spectacular were the planes of the ?Krasnaya pyaterka? group. There were both pure red, and two-colour silver and red planes.  Aerobatic team lead by the Spanish Civil War hero Anatoly Serov had one huge letter painted in white on the lower surface of the each plane.  In the close formation flight, the aircraft wrote clearly legable word "LENIN".  Before the war, there were several aerobatic teams of five planes in several military districts, it is unlikely to establish all the details of their coloring today.  In the first period of the war, parade planes took part in the combats.  There is a sufficient oral evidence on the participation of the red I-16s in the hostilities in the summer of l94l."
 
Cheers,
Konstantin

[Massimo Tessitori]

Again from K.Lesnikov:

Serov lost his life in an accident in May 1939.  The planes with large white letters were almost certainly Type 10.  Planes shown on the photos in our tread are M-62 powered I-16s, most likely those mentioned in October 1939 decree.  Those were also painted in red according to the same decree.
 
A agree with your observation regarding the tail-fin numbers.  To my eye the last plane in the formation has No 4, the next one is No 2 and the leading plane is No 1.  No visible numbers on the plane closest to the camera and on the plane next to it.  Numbers are painted in colour which is very close to base colour red on this type of film: my guess would be yellow.

[marluc]

To my eye the last plane in the formation has No 4, the next one is No 2 and the leading plane is No 1.? No visible numbers on the plane closest to the camera and on the plane next to it.? Numbers are painted in colour which is very close to base colour red on this type of film: my guess would be yellow

You?re right Konstantin,the number 2 can be seen clearly on the rudder of the fourth I-16.I think yellow is a good option.Good and interesting thread,thanks for sharing your research.Best regards.

Martin

[Massimo Tessitori]

Again from K. Lesnikov

 

The numbers are so faint that their interpretation is extremely subjective.  My interpretation would be:
 
 
                1I1
        I2                3I
I4                                5I                                 UTI-4 (with photographer)
 

 
I is plane's tail.  The leader would have number 1 on both sides of the tail.  The two escorts to the left would have numbers 2 and 4 only on the right side of their tails and two left escorts would have numbers 3 and 5 only on the left side of their tails.
 
Final part of the scalemodels.ru forum post:
 
 
 
There are cases that are described more reliably and with more details.  According to one of those, in late 1941, for the aerial defence of the city of Stalingrad , 102nd AD PVO (102th Air Division of the Air Defence System) was founded from the personnel of the Stalingrad and Borisoglebsk flight schools. Airplanes of the two regiments of the division ? 628th IAP and 629th IAP were a rag-tag collection of I-16s and I-153s. According to the memoirs of the former 629th IAP pilot Alexander Popov, he got ?Ishachok? Type 10 with the rudder No ?9?.  To the surprise of Sergeant Popov, under the chipped protective (green) paint he found that the plane had been previously painted in red. Checking the plane?s documentation, the young pilot found that he got the plane previously flown by Anatoly Serov. With this I-16, which before the war Serov flew over the Red Square, pilot Popov rammed a German Do-215 bomber on the outskirts of Stalingrad on 23 July 1942.

 Konstantin