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Author Topic: provisional table of colors  (Read 52376 times)
KL
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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2009, 08:48:52 AM »


I 15 bis, on photos, appear to be painted with a very dark green, aside some I-16s. If not 3B, what else could it be? EP citated an AE-15 and a factory green, possibly the same pain, and Hornat . Is there any conformation on newer and well documented sources?


Hi Massimo,  Smiley

There shouldn't be any mystery regarding I-15bis colours:

According to Maslov it was painted "Zashtsitnaya" green on top surfaces and silver on undersides.  I-15bis was a fabric covered plane and as such it was painted with nitro-cellulose lacquers.  AII Z and AII Al lacquers were both available in 1938.

I-15bis was mass produced (almost cloned) - there were no subtypes, no unnecessary changes.  This is reflected in I-15bis colours too - they are all painted the same.  Only in 1939, at the end of production, some I-15bis were painted in overall silver, same as I-153.

So, forget 4BO, AE-7 or AE-15.  Those were oil paints for metal and they were not used on I-15bis!

Cheers,  Cool
KL  
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 08:54:00 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2009, 03:13:57 PM »


Quote
According to Maslov it was painted "Zashtsitnaya" green on top surfaces and silver on undersides.  I-15bis was a fabric covered plane and as such it was painted with nitro-cellulose lacquers.  AII Z and AII Al lacquers were both available in 1938.

I-15bis was mass produced (almost cloned) - there were no subtypes, no unnecessary changes.  This is reflected in I-15bis colours too - they are all painted the same.  Only in 1939, at the end of production, some I-15bis were painted in overall silver, same as I-153.

So, forget 4BO, AE-7 or AE-15.  Those were oil paints for metal and they were not used on I-15bis!

Hi Konstantin, so AII green makes the part of an overall dark green. Well, it's likely, prewar planes lasted much longer, and the paint had time to darken even more than on MiG-3 wrecks.
I just wonder if the color was really similar to A-19f when new.
About AE-7 and 15, it wold be interesting to know more all the same.
About the color table, I was thinking to make a simplified table for modelers grouping very similar colors in one, and suggesting matches. Only a difficulty: I have only Humbrol paints, and I don't want to buy other types only to check matches. I've a book of IPMS with such matches, but I would like to find someone that helps me.
Is there any volunteer here?

Thank you for the information.
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2009, 10:44:08 PM »

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

I did some search about 4BO and started a tread on scalemodels.ru forum and we have some questions answered.  It turned out that 4BO is an important colour/paint for understanding the changes in colouration that happened in 1940-1941.

What 4BO was could be found at: http://www.dshk.narod.ru/sovpaint.htm

It?s an excerpt from the book:

КОРРОЗИЯ ОРУЖИЯ и БОЕПРИПАСОВ, ИНЖЕНЕР-ПОДПОЛКОВНИК ПОДДУБНЫЙ В. Н., Лауреат
Сталинской премии, Кандидат Технических наук, ВОЕННОЕ ИЗДАТЕЛЬСТВО МИНИСТЕРСТВА ВООРУЖЕННЫХ СИЛ СОЮЗА
ССР МОСКВА?1946

Corrosion of weapons and ammunition by V.N. Poddubniy, published in 1946

In short and only parts related to 4BO it says:

Standard ?Zashtsitnaya? (protection) paint 3B AU had the following deficiency: it was visible (ie, distinguished by color) on the background of foliage or green grass when viewed through special filters. This despite the fact that it blended with the background of green vegetation when viewed with the naked eye (in Russian, the paint was ?decodable?).
This property was caused by paint pigments which reflected different rays of the spectrum, from those rays, which are reflected by chlorophyll - the basic pigment of the green vegetation.
This shortcoming of the paint 3B AU was considered significant.  To improve the camouflage, new nondecodable ?Zashtsitnaya? paint 4BO was developed.

... ...

Shades of colors had to be within approved standards.
Artillery ws almost exclusively painted with oil paints.

... ...

Paint paste 4BO was made of refined linseed oil (30%), green chromium oxide (13.1%), Zurav dry ocher (not more than 51,5%) and orange lead chromate (not less than 5,3%). Except these pigments, other shades were not allowed in 4BO paint before the war. Paint 4BO was fairly bright and juicy green and was suitable for the background of green vegetation - dominant in summer conditions.[ In general, green colour predominates in camouflage (schemes), and 45-55% of the surface of the object is painted in green.


From scalemodels.ru forum:

Paint 4BO for tanks/artillery and other infantry use was formulated in 1940
4BO was originally used for colour, not for paint (in aviation, I would guess).
Aviation analogues of 4BO paint were AMT-4 nitro lacquer and A-24m oil paint

AII Z doesn?t have anything in common with 4BO.
AII Z was darker than 4BO (and AMT-4 or A-24m)

Conclusion:  4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m are the same colour. 4BO oil paint was not used on airplanes.  It was a tank/artillery paint!!!
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Apex1701
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2009, 10:21:18 PM »

Hi Massimo,

About the color table, I was thinking to make a simplified table for modelers grouping very similar colors in one, and suggesting matches. Only a difficulty: I have only Humbrol paints, and I don't want to buy other types only to check matches. I've a book of IPMS with such matches, but I would like to find someone that helps me.
Is there any volunteer here?

What kind of help do you need?

Cheers.

Jean
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 11:35:06 AM »

Quote
Paint 4BO for tanks/artillery and other infantry use was formulated in 1940
4BO was originally used for colour, not for paint (in aviation, I would guess).
Aviation analogues of 4BO paint were AMT-4 nitro lacquer and A-24m oil paint
AII Z doesn?t have anything in common with 4BO.
AII Z was darker than 4BO (and AMT-4 or A-24m)

Conclusion:  4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m are the same colour. 4BO oil paint was not used on airplanes.  It was a tank/artillery paint!!!

Hi Konstantin,
all this is very interesting.
I don't understand well the difference between colour and paint. could you explain it with other words, please?
You wrote that 4B0 was never utilized on planes. Are all the indications of Orlov himself wrong? It was indicatted as a color for experimental camouflages in 1940. If not 4B0, what other color should have benn used on those planes? By the way, on those schemes it was utilized on wooden and fabric surfaces too.

By the way, isn't there any news about AE-15?

Quote
What kind of help do you need?

Cheers.

Jean

I would like some help to find matches of colors of many firms for modelistic use with the AKAN and FS identified till now. I can do this for Humbrol because I usually utilize them, but I would like some help with other firms, because I can't buy tons of paints that I won't utilize.
Eventually we could use as a base the Ipms color cross-reference guide of Klaus, but it's a book of nearly 20 years ago and I would check its indications.

Massimo



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KL
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« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2009, 08:29:29 PM »


I don't understand well the difference between colour and paint. could you explain it with other words, please?


Hi Massimo,

Colour is physical property: it?s the light reflected from objects that we see.

Paint is material that we spray or brush on objects
.  The function of paint is: to protect objects, to decorate objects or to conceal (camouflage) objects.

Obviously, colour is the most important property of the paint.  Colour of any paint is determined by combination of different pigments.

Different paints, say one nitro-cellulose and two oil paints, can have the same colour.  This was the case with AMT-4, A-24m and 4BO - all three were ?fairly bright and juicy green that was suitable for the background of green vegetation - dominant in summer conditions?.

Same was probably true for AIIZ nitro-cellulose paint and AE-7 oil paint.  Both paints were defined as ?Zashtsitnaya?.  In this case, it was the old, pre-1940 dark green colour.  Probably similar to 3B.

Combination AIIZ and AE-7 may have been used on I-15bis and I-16 Type 10.  AE-7 would be used on metal parts and AIIZ on fabric and wood.  Two paints are so similar that we usually can?t see the difference on b/w photos.

A-19f as shown by AKAN and as mentioned in literature was grass green.

MiG-3s painted with A-19f and AIIZ, were in two shades of green ? lighter A-19f and darker AII Z ? from the day when they were painted.

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 08:53:59 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2009, 08:57:26 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
4BO was originally used for colour, not for paint (in aviation, I would guess).
what do you mean with this? That they utilized a paint similar in color to 4B0? Lacking color photos or pieces, I suppose that Orlov and Vaklamov found 4B0 written on the documents on those experimental camouflages. I don't see reason to thinkl that the green was another one.

Quote
Same was probably true for AIIZ nitro-cellulose paint and AE-7 oil paint.  Both paints were defined as ?Zashtsitnaya?.  In this case, it was the old, pre-1940 dark green colour.  Probably similar to 3B.
Is your suggestion that AII green, AE-7 and 3B were similar and all dark?

Quote
MiG-3s painted with A-19f and AIIZ, were in two shades of green ? lighter A-19f and darker AII Z ? from the day when they were painted.

I don't think. On Russian photos of early MiG-3s (forthemost factory ones, but also some of 401 IAP I can't see this differenxce in shade. On German photos, the difference is evident, and much more marked if the plane is in evident state of abandon or if it is of early construction (MiG-1); besides I think that these changes were catalized by sunlight.
Take in account that chips both of A-19 and AII green of AKAN are based on colors old of 60 years.

Massimo




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KL
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« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2009, 09:59:45 PM »

In 1940-41, 4BO was used as a name for that lighter green-yellow colour.

I don't know what paints were used to paint those I-16s, I-153s and SB during 1940 tests.  The fact is that one of those paints had 4BO colour.

1940 tests were important because they showed the value of disruptive camouflage schemes.
Except for 4BO and light brown (only in 1943), other new colours used in these tests were never put in mass production.
I have no idea why all colours used in these tests ended up in lists of VVS paints.  This certainly has created a lot of confusion.

Anyway, when AMT-4 and A-24m were developed the goal was to create matt paints that would have 4BO colour.  At the same time 4BO oil paint of the same colour, had been developed for Army use.  At the end in summer 1941 there were three paints:

4BO oil paint for tanks/artillery/trucks/helmets/showels etc
A-24m matt oil paint for metal planes
AMT-4 mat nitro-cellulose lacquer for fabric/wood/mixed construction planes




A lot of ?ifs? and ?probablies? in the rest of my post:

AIIZ and AE-7 are probably the same colour.  Both are described with the same colour name and both were developed around 1937.

IF MiG-3s were painted with A-19f ? there would be two shades of green.  A-19f and AIIZ were the paints of two different generations.
IF MiG-3s were painted with AIIZ and AE-7 ? they would look solid green, like I-15bis.

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 11:17:02 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2009, 07:06:29 AM »

Hi Konstantin, Smiley

Quote
Anyway, when AMT-4 and A-24m were developed the goal was to create matt paints that would have 4BO colour.  At the same time 4BO oil paint of the same colour, had been developed for Army use.  At the end in summer 1941 there were three paints:

4BO oil paint for tanks/artillery/trucks/helmets/showels etc
A-24m matt oil paint for metal planes
AMT-4 mat nitro-cellulose lacquer for fabric/wood/mixed construction planes

It looks a bit strange that 4BO oil paint has the same name of the color, while A-24 amd AMT-4 have the same pigment with different names. Being Orlov available on Scalemodels.ru, could you ask what is his position on the aricle that he wrote?

Quote
IF MiG-3s were painted with A-19f ? there would be two shades of green.  A-19f and AIIZ were the paints of two different generations.
IF MiG-3s were painted with AIIZ and AE-7 ? they would look solid green, like I-15bis.

This doesn't match with my observations on wartime photos where all those of Russian origin show uniform green and all the German ones show some division. Ok, it could be that those paints had a different hue that is impressed in films in different ways, but the increasing of the contrast with the state of abandon of the plane is evident.


Massimo

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Apex1701
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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2009, 04:30:47 PM »

Hi Massimo,
[/quote]
I would like some help to find matches of colors of many firms for modelistic use with the AKAN and FS identified till now. I can do this for Humbrol because I usually utilize them, but I would like some help with other firms, because I can't buy tons of paints that I won't utilize.
Eventually we could use as a base the Ipms color cross-reference guide of Klaus, but it's a book of nearly 20 years ago and I would check its indications.
[/quote]

I can try to match Tamiya flats to Akan and FS.
Also I have some WEM that I can try to match whatever their name was.

The only culprit is that I'm not sure my matches will be OK.
In fact I intend to paint some paint chips on cardboard and then scan them to compare them to AKAN and FS.
I can't find another way other than buying AKAN and FS color chips.
I'm open to suggestions ;-)

As for the IPMS color reference book do you have it in electronic format?

All the best.

Jean
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KL
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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2009, 07:22:09 PM »

It looks a bit strange that 4BO oil paint has the same name of the color, while A-24 amd AMT-4 have the same pigment with different names. Being Orlov available on Scalemodels.ru, could you ask what is his position on the aricle that he wrote?

Hi Massimo,

I have already started tread on scalemodels.ru and there are no more replies.
I don?t see anything strange with 4BO or what V&O wrote about it:

4BO was an oil paint used for tanks/artillery during WWII and for decades after WWII
4BO (and other Army paints) were tested on airplanes in 1940
4BO was used as a reference when AMT-4 and A-24m were developed.



The question is:  Do you want to include a well known tank paint in your list of standard aviation paints?

1940 tests are an interesting and important subject, but if you include all or some of the paints used it these tests in your list, you are going to continue with the confusion.

Cheers,
KL   
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2009, 11:22:59 PM »

Hi Konstantin, Smiley
hmmm... I have to read again the translation of the work of Orlov before answering. However, the predecessor of 4BO, 3B, was utilized both on tanks and on planes.
By the way, what does 4BO mean?

Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2009, 11:05:39 PM »

Hi,
I've updted the page. I have enclosed something on Spanish colors (supposing that they were really Spanish and not Russian) and some other things.
I think that I'll split this table in separate files, to add some comments as photos, links or color profiles under each file.
Massimo
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bonifaz
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2009, 04:34:16 PM »

Hi Massimo,
You have done an excellent job.
But would you correct the names for the new colors please?
24ng - brown green
22Lg - light green
2Le   - yellow green
3ie   - sand
3ng  - brown
23pi - green
Cheers Ron
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marluc
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« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2009, 09:42:26 PM »

Hello Massimo:

Good work on this table,it is a good reference for modellers.
Regarding the colours of the republican flag during de SCW,one spanish modeller recommended me to use the following Humbrol paints because they are a pretty close match:

-RED: H153 Insignia Red
-YELLOW: H154 Insignia Yellow
-Purple: H68 Purple (out of production)

I?ve painted the rudder of a Eduard I-16 with these colours and I think they?re accurate,at least to me.



Greetings.

Martin

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