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Author Topic: provisional table of colors  (Read 51918 times)
KL
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« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2010, 10:50:29 PM »

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

I've just sent my tables.  Hope you will find them usefull.

I have already asked Akanihin about AE-7 and he couldn't help.  The only person who may help is Orlov.  He wrote about AE-7 in 1996 and 1999.
IMHO, it is safe to keep AE-7 as AII Z equivalent.  It's questionable if this paint has ever been used on mass produced planes.  Maybe on I-15bis metal parts?  On some MiG-3s???

I doubt that Isaac can help with AE-7.  It looks that Republican planes were repainted with local paints, Spanish or posibly French.

In my opinion, most serial MiG-3s were painted with combination of AII nitro paints for fabric/wood parts and alkyd paints on metal parts.





Cheers,
KL
  
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2010, 07:58:54 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
probably you are right, I had a look again at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=334.0 and its green on metallic parts looks more yellowish than on wooden parts. So the hypothesis of AE-7 for this plane is unlikely.
It persists the objection that, on photos of MiG-3s new of factory, the difference isn't visible, that led to the idea that those colors could have been more similar before a long exposition to sun.
About the shades of light blue:

in this image, the shade of the metallic part (flap) looks brighter than on wooden parts, but it could be an effect of the dust deposited due to different position of those pieces. A close look to the original pieces could be useful.

Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2010, 10:45:17 AM »

Hi,
Thanks to Konstantin, I've updated the table of colors.
Some things are different: for example, about the use of AII light blue. The photos of types of 1938 as I-15bis don't show evidence of metallic undersurfaces, so it's reasonable to suppose that the use of AII light blue is started contemporary to AII green and light grey in 1937.
The color shown on the undersurfaces of a Spanish I-16, compatible with AII light blue, seems to confirm this.
The part on seaplanes is still veiled by mystery. I suppose that AE-10 and 14 could have been utilized, but there is not a confirmation, and their shades are unknown.
About three-colors camo: according to the templates of 1943, Il-4 and Pe-8 should have black instead of dark grey. From some photos, I suspect the same for Yak-6, even if it is listed for grey.
I've modified the part on Spanish colors too, but take in account that only four pieces of Spanish planes with original colors are known till now, they could be not fully representative.

Massimo
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bonifaz
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« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2010, 09:14:53 PM »

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

I've just sent my tables.  Hope you will find them usefull.

I have already asked Akanihin about AE-7 and he couldn't help.  The only person who may help is Orlov.  He wrote about AE-7 in 1996 and 1999.
IMHO, it is safe to keep AE-7 as AII Z equivalent.  It's questionable if this paint has ever been used on mass produced planes.  Maybe on I-15bis metal parts?  On some MiG-3s???

I doubt that Isaac can help with AE-7.  It looks that Republican planes were repainted with local paints, Spanish or posibly French.

In my opinion, most serial MiG-3s were painted with combination of AII nitro paints for fabric/wood parts and alkyd paints on metal parts.





Cheers,
KL
  


Hello,
this is what I have tried on my Hobbyboss Mig.
With bad results.
As primer for metal parts I used Modelmaster aluminium. Then sprayed A18 and A19 and masked with Tamiya tape.
After removeing the tape the paint was lost. So the kit goes to the corner...
Now I had a strange idea....Can it be- ALG was used as primer under A19/A18? Or below AII too?
Then Iwill try to use Tamiya paint as ALG1. I hope the Akans stick better than...
Ron
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2010, 08:45:52 AM »


Quote
Hello,
this is what I have tried on my Hobbyboss Mig.
With bad results.
As primer for metal parts I used Modelmaster aluminium. Then sprayed A18 and A19 and masked with Tamiya tape.
After removeing the tape the paint was lost. So the kit goes to the corner...
Now I had a strange idea....Can it be- ALG was used as primer under A19/A18? Or below AII too?
Then Iwill try to use Tamiya paint as ALG1. I hope the Akans stick better than...
Ron

Hi Ron,
for what I know, wooden parts were covered with yellow putty, a layer of fabric and then yellow putty again. So, yellow (similar to zinc chromate) is what one sees where the green paint is scratched over wooden parts. I am not sure that the same was for rudder and elevators, whose internal surface looks painted aluminum.
About metallic parts, I don't know if they were primered with ALG-1 on MiG-3s, that were often characterized by the loss on much paint on the left wingroot due to the pilot's boots. Propeller blades show the loss of paint at their tips. Maybe some Finnish modeler that saw the pieces in Veesiveehma could answer.





These images seem to show remains of original paint on the wingroot fillet. In my guess, they are not over a primer.

Why did you want to prime your model with aluminium? To show scratches?

Massimo


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KL
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« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2010, 09:28:16 PM »

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

I hope the others will approve changes.  To me the table looks beter organized.

Actually the table is the best list of Soviet colours currently available on the web.  On few ocasions it was mentioned as a reference on the scalemodels.ru forum.


Still there is a lot of room for improvement.  


Some things are different: for example, about the use of AII light blue. The photos of types of 1938 as I-15bis don't show evidence of metallic undersurfaces, so it's reasonable to suppose that the use of AII light blue is started contemporary to AII green and light grey in 1937.
The color shown on the undersurfaces of a Spanish I-16, compatible with AII light blue, seems to confirm this.

To include AII Blue in pre 1940 colours or not?  I would say NO. There is no evidence that blue was used for undersides between 1938 and 1940 - and there is a lot of evidence that silver was used instead:

Vahlamov and Orlov (1996 M-Hobby) say that undersides of mixed construction fighters were painted in silver in 1937-1940.  Photo below is supposed to show undersides painted with AII Al.  Thay also say that in the same period Blue disappeared from the paint asortment list.






Vahlamov and Orlov (1999 M-Hobby) have published a table which shows that the beginning of use of AII Blue was in 1940, too late for I-15bis:




Maslov in his I-15bis book (2003 Rusavia monograph) says that series I-15bis upper surfaces were painted green and that undersides were painted silver.  At the end of production in 1939, entire planes were painted silver:




On some e-bay photos lower wing surfaces of I-15bis look silver:



on others they don?t - but that doesn?t mean they were blue either




Fabric fragment preserved in Finnish museum also shows silver-gray, NOT blue:  





Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 10:07:45 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2010, 09:46:50 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
The first image is interesting and I agree that the undersurface looks silver.
Unfortunately I can't see the second a third one.
The piece of fabric in the finnish museum could be from an I-153; many of them had aluminium painted fabric surfaces and grey painted metallic surfaces.
Of the photos reported on the Polish version of the monograph of Maslov, only the plane at pag.38 seems to have silver undersurfaces, and only under the fuselage and perhaps under wings, while the struts and the lower face of cowling were not metallic. The photo at pag.35 seems to show a discontinuity in the color of the upper wing between the central part and the distal part, out from fuselage struts. It's not the only one.
So, I'm starting to suspect that undersurfaces were not painted in a single color. The color of the metal parts could be light grey or light blue, but it could be different for the fabric parts under the wing and fuselage.
Some new research is required.
By the way, I have not found photos of operative I-15bis with silver overall livery, eventually only of prototypes.
Best regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2010, 09:47:48 PM »

Massimo,  Smiley

AII Z (Protective green) does not belong in 1937-40 table.  Vahlamov and Orlov are very clear:

AII Blue was used starting from 1940
Lower surfaces of camouflaged planes were silver in 1938-39


Maslov also clearly describes factory scheme:

Zashtitnii green for upper surfaces and silver for undersides.

The three authors relied on documents, not the interpretation of b/w photos.  It's up to you to follow what they say or rely on your own understanding of b/w photos and published color profiles.  If you rely on "photographic evidence" only, you are  doing exactly the same what Pilawskii is doing (with well known results).


In Russian I-15bis monograph (Maslov, Rusavia 2003), all colour profiles show undersides blue, regardless of what author says in text. Embarrassed

Quote
The first image is interesting and I agree that the undersurface looks silver.
Unfortunately I can't see the second a third one.

This photo shows undersides silver.  Note that the wing repair and tailplane are painted with different paint:




The same plane from different angle.  Silver colour is less convincing:




All silver I-15bis made in mid 1939:





All photos above show red star with inscribed black circle typical for pre 1940, i.e. factory scheme.

Cheers,  Cool
KL

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2010, 10:42:34 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for photos. Now I can see them.
With all the respect for documents and authors, I believe more in what I see. For example, there are official NKAP templates of camouflages, but from photos it's obvious that they are not always respected.
About EP: I think that the main problem is not when he interpretates photos... but if he really has photos or sources other than those that are commonly available to anyone is interested, as he vaunts.
The images show clearly silver on the lower surfaces of wings, tail and fuselage. All available photos, however, show not any metallic shade under the engine cowling and landing gear struts. So things are more clear: metal surfaces were not silver, but probably AE-9 exactly as I-153, while fabric surfaces were silver. 
I see that there is a repair, close to the star on wings, that is definitely painted with a non-metallic color, probably light grey. So, it could also be that on some planes the silver paint was repainted with light grey (but it is difficult to demonstrate if this is true or false).
Thank you for the images of silver I-15bis; however I suspect that the metallic parts are painted light grey as on I-153. If it's possible to find some with tail numbers visible, one could trace some profiles.
Massimo



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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2010, 10:55:33 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
I see that you are discussing the thing on Scalemodels at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_20208.html.
Could you report my opinion there, please, and give the link of this topic, so we could know the reactions of Russian modelers?
By the way, in that topic there are some of the scans that show that, in my opinion, the underside of cowling was not painted metallic.
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2010, 08:09:22 AM »

Well, at this point it would be interesting to see if it's possible to demonstrate the use of silver on the undersurfaces of other types of 1937-1940, as I-16. At present time, I don't remember any image.
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2010, 09:49:17 PM »

Hi Massimo,
sorry for this late reply  Sad

Some things are different: for example, about the use of AII light blue. The photos of types of 1938 as I-15bis don't show evidence of metallic undersurfaces, so it's reasonable to suppose that the use of AII light blue is started contemporary to AII green and light grey in 1937.

Your assumption is not correct - AII (Protective) Green and AII Light Blue were not introduced at the same time.  Beginning of use of AII Green was in mid 1937 and begining of use of AII Light Blue was in 1940.

I also made a mistake in the table and put "specification issued around 1937".  AII Light Blue specification number is actualy next to AII Tobaco Brown specification.  This also points to 1940.

Quote
With all the respect for documents and authors, I believe more in what I see. For example, there are official NKAP templates of camouflages, but from photos it's obvious that they are not always respected.


On b/w photos, you can't diferentiate  light blue from light gray,  yellow or pink.  You simpli can't use "photographic evidence" to prove that AII Light Blue was in use before 1940.

Quote
Well, at this point it would be interesting to see if it's possible to demonstrate the use of silver on the undersurfaces of other types of 1937-1940, as I-16. At present time, I don't remember any image.


Dmitri Linevich says at scalemodels.ru forum that Halkin-Gol I-16s (1939) had light gray undersurfaces. I-15bis and I-153s had silver undersurfaces.  The only plane with blue undersurfaces was TB-3 - but it was the pre-1937 blue-gray.  No AII Light Blue at Halkin-Gol!

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2010, 10:27:57 PM »

Hi Konstantin,

Quote
On b/w photos, you can't diferentiate  light blue from light gray,  yellow or pink.  You simpli can't use "photographic evidence" to prove that AII Light Blue was in use before 1940.

This is right, light blue and light grey are undistinguishable on bw photos. But metallic colors are often distinguishable from non-metallic colors. The discussion on I-15bis broght a very interesting result, I wonder if it's possible to clarify in the same way the thing on I-16 and other types too.
In other words, have you ever found a photo of I-16 with totally or partially silver undersurfaces?

Quote
Dmitri Linevich says at scalemodels.ru forum that Halkin-Gol I-16s (1939) had light gray undersurfaces. I-15bis and I-153s had silver undersurfaces.  The only plane with blue undersurfaces was TB-3 - but it was the pre-1937 blue-gray.  No AII Light Blue at Halkin-Gol!
The information of Dimitri on light grey on I-16s is interestinwg, what is his source? Maybe they were partially grey and partially silver as I-15bis.

Massimo
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bonifaz
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« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2010, 11:14:11 PM »

Hi Massimo,
for me there is no reason to use AE9 in combination with AII al. AE8 is shown in the Albom so it was produced until 1946 ( Orloy wrote until the 50?r).
Ron
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John Thompson
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« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2010, 11:31:12 PM »

I should probably study a lot more before sticking my neck out on this topic, but regarding I-16 colours (and ignoring for the moment the differences between lacquers for wood/fabric surfaces and oil enamels for metal), how wrong is the following chronology:

(1) I-16's built before mid-1937: "Zashchitnyi" (khaki; like Akan 363) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(2) I-16's built between mid-1937 and 1940: AII Green (AII Z) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(3) late I-16's built after 1940: AII Green (AII Z) or AII Green and Black upper, AII Blue under surfaces

(4) photos of I-16's with overall AII Aluminum finish seem to be rare; the only ones I'm aware of are those showing "my favourite I-16":



...and maybe this one, from one of Geust's "Red Stars" books, via Scalemodels.ru:






It's rather confusing - maybe someone should publish a guide to I-16 colours?  Wink

John
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