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Author Topic: provisional table of colors  (Read 51890 times)
KL
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« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2010, 01:47:11 AM »

...how wrong is the following chronology:

(1) I-16's built before mid-1937: "Zashchitnyi" (khaki; like Akan 363) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(2) I-16's built between mid-1937 and 1940: AII Green (AII Z) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(3) late I-16's built after 1940: AII Green (AII Z) or AII Green and Black upper, AII Blue under surfaces

It's rather confusing - maybe someone should publish a guide to I-16 colours?


(1) before mid-1937 (Type 5): "Zashchitnyi" (Akan 363) upper, blue-grey (Akan 371) under surfaces

(2) between mid-1937 and 1938 (Late Type 5): overall silver (or gray???)

(3) between 1938 and mid-1940 (Type 10, 24 etc): AII Z upper, AII Gray or AII Al under surfacesHuh

(3) mid-1940 to mid ? 1941 (Type 29): AII Z upper, AII Light Blue undersides

(4) from summer 1941:  Black-Green scheme applied in field


Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 02:36:32 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2010, 07:30:04 AM »

Quote
Hi Massimo,
for me there is no reason to use AE9 in combination with AII al. AE8 is shown in the Albom so it was produced until 1946 ( Orloy wrote until the 50?r).
Ron

Hi Ron,
for what I know, AE-8 is for metallic surfaces. For what I see on these photos of I-15bis and many I-153, the silver color is recognizable only on fabric surfaces, so the difference has to be due to the chemical medium, not to the pigment.

 
Quote
should probably study a lot more before sticking my neck out on this topic, but regarding I-16 colours (and ignoring for the moment the differences between lacquers for wood/fabric surfaces and oil enamels for metal), how wrong is the following chronology:

(1) I-16's built before mid-1937: "Zashchitnyi" (khaki; like Akan 363) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(2) I-16's built between mid-1937 and 1940: AII Green (AII Z) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(3) late I-16's built after 1940: AII Green (AII Z) or AII Green and Black upper, AII Blue under surfaces

(4) photos of I-16's with overall AII Aluminum finish seem to be rare; the only ones I'm aware of are those showing "my favourite I-16":



...and maybe this one, from one of Geust's "Red Stars" books, via Scalemodels.ru:

Hi John,
thank you for the images. The silver one is very nice.
To tell the truth, I don't think that the tail up I-16 is silver, but it seems that has undersurfaces of two colors anyway. There is a wide part of peeled color on the elevators, perhaps this is what happened when they utilized a color for metals over fabric.


Quote
(1) before mid-1937 (Type 5): "Zashchitnyi" (Akan 363) upper, blue-grey (Akan 371) under surfaces

(2) between mid-1937 and 1938 (Late Type 5): overall silver (or gray???)

(3) between 1938 and mid-1940 (Type 10, 24 etc): AII Z upper, AII Gray or AII Al under surfaces

(3) mid-1940 to mid ? 1941 (Type 29): AII Z upper, AII Light Blue undersides

(4) from summer 1941:  Black-Green scheme applied in field


Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,

About the undersurfaces: the Akan catalogue shows a shade of light grey-blue for planes before 1937, but I don't think that it was the same of AE-9. Eventually AE-9 and AII light grey could be the colors for 1937-40 period, but if it is so, they can't be distinguished from AII light blue on photos.
I would remember that the chips of color given by Montoya for his piece of I-16 shows a light grey-blue-green as underlying layer, and a light blue (unclear if Spanish or Russian, but not very different from AII blue) for the upper layer.
I think that we should look again on photos of I-16s to identify metallic reflex on undersurfaces. I had a look yesterday to a book and saw sugh thing on the wingroot in front of the landing gear, but not on the external part of wings of the same planes. The wingroot is a metallic part, I would expect grey or blue there, not silver.

Massimo




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KL
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« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2010, 06:19:47 PM »

About the undersurfaces: the Akan catalogue shows a shade of light grey-blue for planes before 1937, but I don't think that it was the same of AE-9. Eventually AE-9 and AII light grey could be the colors for 1937-40 period, but if it is so, they can't be distinguished from AII light blue on photos.

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

Before 1937 (or starting from approx. 1930) there was only one scheme for all planes made in series - "Zashchitniy" green for upper surfaces and light blue for undersides.  Those two colours are Akan 363 and 371.  Akanihin calls 371 blue-gray and I carried over that name, but to avoid confusion it would be better to call it light blueThis colour doesn't have anything in common with AE-9.

In 1937-38 those two colours were discontinued and replaced with new AE oil paints for metal and AII nitro-cellulose lacquers for fabric.
At the same time colour of lower surfaces changed from light blue to silver/gray.  Following photo should illustrate this change - first two planes are 1936 Type 5 with black noses and the last three planes are 1938 Type 10





From the same series of photos - Type 5 showing its "old Zasht" uppersurfaces, Black nose  and "old Light Blue" undersides




1938 I-16 Type 10 - AII "Zasht. (Protective)" Green on uppersurfaces and AII Gray (or AII Al) on undersides.  AE-7, AE-8 and AE-9 may have been used on metal parts

 


Cheers,
KL
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John Thompson
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« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2010, 08:34:51 PM »

Hi Konstantin! These are splendid images - I'll definitely be saving them! Thank you very much!

John
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marluc
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« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2010, 08:54:57 PM »

Thanks Konstantin for these excellent photos and the information.
One detail regarding the landing gear of the Type 5?s:the inner side of the cover and landing gear legs look like they?re painted in black.One spanish modeller told me once that a mechanic from the Spanish Civil War recalled that the I-16 Type 5?s had the same feature,including the wheel wells.greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2010, 12:21:19 PM »

Quote
Hi Massimo, 

Before 1937 (or starting from approx. 1930) there was only one scheme for all planes made in series - "Zashchitniy" green for upper surfaces and light blue for undersides.  Those two colours are Akan 363 and 371.  Akanihin calls 371 blue-gray and I carried over that name, but to avoid confusion it would be better to call it light blue.  This colour doesn't have anything in common with AE-9.

In 1937-38 those two colours were discontinued and replaced with new AE oil paints for metal and AII nitro-cellulose lacquers for fabric.
At the same time colour of lower surfaces changed from light blue to silver/gray.  Following photo should illustrate this change - first two planes are 1936 Type 5 with black noses and the last three planes are 1938 Type 10





From the same series of photos - Type 5 showing its "old Zasht" uppersurfaces, Black nose  and "old Light Blue" undersides




1938 I-16 Type 10 - AII "Zasht. (Protective)" Green on uppersurfaces and AII Gray (or AII Al) on undersides.  AE-7, AE-8 and AE-9 may have been used on metal parts

 


Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for having found really excellent images! Where are them from?

By sure, they rove the discontinuity in coloring of the lower surfaces between before 1937 and after. Just I can't say if the later undersurfaces are silver, gloss light grey or a mix of them. Maybe some further photos of wrecks could help.

Quote
One detail regarding the landing gear of the Type 5?s:the inner side of the cover and landing gear legs look like they?re painted in black.One spanish modeller told me once that a mechanic from the Spanish Civil War recalled that the I-16 Type 5?s had the same feature,including the wheel wells.greetings.

Hi Martin, the restored plane in Cuatro Vientos has black undercarriages too. I thought that this was wrong, but perhaps it isn't.

Massimo

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KL
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« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2010, 08:31:43 PM »

Photos are from the Internet.  I saved them recently, but can't remember where from...  Sad

The photo group is widely known and I will post more photos from my hard-drive.   But first, this is what "military historian" writes about the colours of I-16 Type 5:


I-16 Type 5 "9"
Pilot  unknown
12 IAP VMF-KBF
ca. August 1937



I-16 Type 5 number "9" is one of those pesky aircraft on which I cannot determine which colour is the actual numeral, and which is the trim! Is it "Red 9"; "White 9"? I really do not know. Number "9" was thought to belong to the Navy's 12 IAP of the Baltic Fleet, and was photographed in August 1937.

This aircraft was finished in a typical AII Green over Blue finish (or, possibly the earlier AEh lacquers of similar colour; the appearance of these paints was quite close, so this detail is not critical from a modeling perspective) of a worn shade, and has a black cowling. The numeral is unusually large, but in this photograph's line-up such a feature appears to be entirely normal. The spinner looks to be yellow (white spinners are also present on some other aircraft).

Many of the machines in this photo are fitted with an SL-17 camera. As well, many of the crew are turned out in their dress uniforms. It is possible that the photo was taken on the occasion of the VMF's aerial gunnery competition for 1937, which was indeed hosted by the Baltic Fleet (KBF) in August. Otherwise, the appearance of so many gun-cameras on Type 5 aircraft is rather unusual.

Number "9" wears plain red national star markings in six positions, including the wing upper surfaces. The appearance is rather neat, and despite some small wear the aircraft is well cleaned.



?Black Nose? indicates 1936.  As we know now, AII Green (a.k.a. AII Z or AII Protective Green) appeared in summer 1937 and AII Light Blue in 1940.  AEh paints appeared in 1937, so this particular I-16 wasn't painted with AII or AEh paints.

Olive green is a total miss ? pre-war ?Protective Green? was dark green!

Red stars should be outlined in black.  Stars without outline were standard from summer 1941 to September 1943.

1937 is impossible ? first I-16 Type 10 were completed in February-March 1938 and sent to Spain!  Actually, all I-16s Type 10 made in first 6 months of 1938 were sent to Spain.  More realistic date for the photo group would be autumn 1938 or 1939.

Cheers,
KL

« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 08:44:44 PM by KL » Logged
marluc
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« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2010, 11:33:35 PM »

Hello Massimo:

...the restored plane in Cuatro Vientos has black undercarriages too. I thought that this was wrong, but perhaps it isn't.
Regarding the I-16 of Cuatro Vientos museum,as far as I know,the colours and camouflage pattern of "nationalist side" are not accurate.And I think that the plane itself is a mock up,not a restored plane.
Greetings.

Martin
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 12:00:44 AM by marluc » Logged
KL
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« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2010, 08:15:45 AM »

Continued:

Photos were taken in 1938, this is confirmed on the back of one of the photos.

Following two photos better show Type 17 (not Type 10, sorry  Roll Eyes) undersides  







There is no metallic reflection on undersides, note the difference between undersides and the steel cowling ring.  Light gray seems to be a valid gues  Roll Eyes.  If so, the combination of AII Gray and AE-9 is possible.

According to Vahlamov and Orlow (1996), the beginning of use of the silver AE-8 was in late 1938 or in 1939 - between 1 and 2 years after light gray AE-9.  There is no AE-8 on these photos!  This may also explain light gray AE-9 cowlings of 1938 I-15bis.


Again, Type 5 in pre-1937 colours




and pesky I-16 Type 5 number "9".  Is it "Red 9"; "White 9"? I really do not know.  Grin




Cheers,  Cool
KL

« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 08:36:29 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2010, 11:32:24 AM »

Quote
Photos were taken in 1938, this is confirmed on the back of one of the photos.

Following two photos better show Type 17 (not Type 10, sorry  ) undersides 


Hi Konstantin,
thank you for all these beautiful images.

Quote
There is no metallic reflection on undersides, note the difference between undersides and the steel cowling ring.  Light gray seems to be a valid gues  .  If so, the combination of AII Gray and AE-9 is possible.

According to Vahlamov and Orlow (1996), the beginning of use of the silver AE-8 was in late 1938 or in 1939 - between 1 and 2 years after light gray AE-9.  There is no AE-8 on these photos!  This may also explain light gray AE-9 cowlings of 1938 I-15bis.

gloss grey looks fully compatible with images. This could mean that silver undersurfaces could be still looked for on the wide amount of photos of wrecks on aero'n'aero. or other sites.

Quote
The photo group is widely known and I will post more photos from my hard-drive.   But first, this is what "military historian" writes about the colours of I-16 Type 5:

To tell the truth, those inconsistencies are minimal if compared to other ones from the same source.
However, about the tail number my idea is consistent with him: red with white outline.  In another image there is another number on a tail, dark with light outline, possibly 5 or 6.

On plane 9, note that the metal part on stabilizer's root is darker than the wooden fuselage, the contrary of what was commonly seen on MiG-3s.

Quote
Regarding the I-16 of Cuatro Vientos museum,as far as I know,the colours and camouflage pattern of "nationalist side" are not accurate.And I think that the plane itself is a mock up,not a restored plane.

Really? Pity, it looked convincing to my eye.
Do you know it for sure? Can this be revealed from photos, for what you know?
In another room there is a scaled down replica.

Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2010, 08:59:12 AM »

Continued:
Quote
thank you for having found really excellent images! Where are them from?

photos are saved from http://www.forumavia.ru/forum/8/9/3788046170264537798121171695289_2.shtml

It is explained there that planes belonged to 13-ой АЭ 61-ой АБ ВВС КБФ = 13th Avio Squadron of the
61st Avio Brigade of the Red Baltic Fleet

Winter War I-16 and I-15bis from same unit at: http://www.bellabs.ru/Fotab/Sov-Fin/Sov-Fin.html


Quote
To tell the truth, those inconsistencies are minimal if compared to other ones from the same source.

It's not about inconsistencies - it's about misinformationWrong date, wrong unit, wrong colour.

Quote
Quote
Regarding the I-16 of Cuatro Vientos museum,as far as I know,the colours and camouflage pattern of "nationalist side" are not accurate.And I think that the plane itself is a mock up,not a restored plane.

Really? Pity, it looked convincing to my eye.
Do you know it for sure? Can this be revealed from photos, for what you know?

100% sure, it's replica.  Not a single Republican plane was preserved in Spain.  I-15 is also a replika but with some original parts (M-25 engine).
Cheers,
KL
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marluc
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« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2010, 09:02:47 PM »

Thanks Konstantin for sharing all these beautiful photos.Greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2010, 05:46:21 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Winter War I-16 and I-15bis from same unit at: http://www.bellabs.ru/Fotab/Sov-Fin/Sov-Fin.html
really nice links. There is even a photo of a silver/grey I-15bis, unfortunately codes are not visible.
Quote
It's not about inconsistencies - it's about misinformation.  Wrong date, wrong unit, wrong colour.
Well, it's not so funny as when he wrote that Germans repainted wrecks for shooting better photos. Pity that all the old posts of Hobbyvista were lost.
Massimo
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bonifaz
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« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2010, 12:36:00 AM »

Hi Massimo,
you want to be funny Grin
here http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Various/Markings/Doodle/part1.php it is Wink
I will be waiting for part two...I want to learn about German thinking from a great historian (I am just a student). I understand now, why the uncle of my grandfather was so hungry and frozen in Russia...because the "F?hrer" wants to show captured Sovietplanes in German colors...There was no reason enought to send food and cloth. Huh
But if I am wrong ( may be) I want to see documents or ( and ) interviews about this topic.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 11:32:50 AM by bonifaz » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2010, 05:31:39 PM »

Quote
Hi Massimo,
you want to be funny
here http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Various/Markings/Doodle/part1.php it is
I will be waiting for part two...I want to learn about German thinking from a great historian (I am just a student). I understand now, why the uncle of my grandfather was so hungry and frozen in Russia...because the "F?hrer" wants to show captured Sovietplanes in German colors...There was no reason enought to send food and cloth.
But if I am wrong ( may be) I want to see documents or ( and ) interviews about this topic.

Hi Ron,
I guess that I'm not the only one that finds his theory... too original.
Massimo
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