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Author Topic: provisional table of colors  (Read 50561 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #90 on: April 26, 2010, 07:27:06 AM »

Hi,
I've one doubt on his method. He supposes that colors scanned with the same scanner give an homogeneous comparison. In my experience, scanners have a regulation system, so a color is reproduced also in function of the circustant colors. I would see the image of chips scanned side-by-side.
Besides, often I don't recognize the shade of known colors on the monitor. It could be a problem of regulation, I know...
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #91 on: April 26, 2010, 09:41:03 PM »

This may be of interest - Michael Benolkin's first steps into the treacherous swamp of VVS GPW colour analysis Wink :

It?s good to have someone with experience and knowledge (fresh ideas also count) dealing with this subject.

IMHO, comparing Vahlamov, Orlov and Akanihin on one side with Pilawskii on the other side is like comparing apples and oranges.  Russian authors relied on archival data and created a coherent story.  Pilawskii ignored (and continues to ignore) relevant historical facts and made a chaotic mess.

Comparing Russian authors, Pilawskii and Testors paints would be like comparing apples, oranges and (something like) meteorites.  There we have authors who quote their sources, author who hides his sources but explains his methodology and finally something totally unknown: no sources, no methodology.

Bedolkin?s exercise makes sense if some useful conclusions are made:
?   If colour chips that are supposed to represent the same paint differ so much, some of them are closer to truth and others are wrong
?   If there are no Akan chips for some of Pilawskii colours, maybe those colours never existed? like "tractor green" or "factory green"

Approach illustrated with a following comment:  ?I have a hunch that they're all correct depending on who produced the paint and how old paint sample was by the time it was viewed for study? is unproductive.  We will never learn how those paints really looked if we keep thinking that way.

How can he prove that Soviet paints were ?something that didn't exactly follow a rigid standard?Huh  I can only say that standards did exist.


How about this scenarion:
Russian researcher wants to define US Olive Drab color.
  He first examines several P-63s and P-39s in Russian museums.  He ignores the fact that those exhibits were repainted many times.  He only concludes that their colours are different.
   Then he examines hundreds of black and white photos.  Again he finds variability ? all kinds of gray shades.
   Finally he gets samples of several wrecks.  Some are from Arctic lakes, other from Ukrainian mud, some might have been repainted while in VVS service, but he ignores all this and only concludes that they are all different.
The conclusion of this Russian researcher is that Americans may have had FS, but they didn?t stick to it; any green colour was good for Olove Drab.  Is this a valid conclusion, or not?
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #92 on: April 26, 2010, 10:45:02 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
to me, it looks reasonable that Benolkin doesn't take a position, having not made his own personal researches. The comparison of shades is interesting... even if I don't recognize them at all on my screen, many greens looks browns.
One should suggest that the AII green of Akan shouldn't be compared to AII dark green, whose supposed use is for bands only, but with AII (light) green for solid uppersurfaces.
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #93 on: April 26, 2010, 11:26:54 PM »

to me, it looks reasonable that Benolkin doesn't take a position, having not made his own personal researches. The comparison of shades is interesting...

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

I hope that Benolkin will soon learn why Vahlamov, Orlov and Akan are different than Pilawskii and why he can't compare them side by side.

Position that Soviet paints were ?something that didn't exactly follow a rigid standard? is Pilawskii's position.  Again, I hope that Benolkin will change that position.

One should suggest that the AII green of Akan shouldn't be compared to AII dark green, whose supposed use is for bands only, but with AII (light) green for solid uppersurfaces.

There was no AII Dark Green - AII Light Green scheme.  It's Pilawskii's misinterpretation of some, AMT-4 / AMT-6, black-green camouflaged planes.

Only one AII green was mass produced and used between 1938 and mid-1941:  check my post April 07 post Wink.

Cheers,
KL
 
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #94 on: May 03, 2010, 06:43:41 AM »

there are 5 Olive Drabs in use with the USAAF from 1940-1945
and no shade of green will match any of them as they are all Brown.
(don't ask me why they cal it Olive Drab)
originally stemming from RFC green (that is also brown)these shades run the gamut from dark brown to medium brown and some with hints of green.
when cadmium was removed from the mix the paint's ability to resist weathering was dramatically reduced and one P-38 unit in Africa said their planes faded to bright purple Huh
so it is no surprise to find a lot of variation in these later batches of paints and it is then further compounded by the particular location and weather these wrecks had encountered since the war ended.
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"when we lose the right to be different, we lose the priviledge to be free"--Charles Evans Hughes
Graham Boak
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« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2010, 05:34:53 PM »

That there were several different OFFICIAL Olive Drabs, at different times (although not all Air Force, I believe?) is just a matter of observing the chronology.  Beyond that, there is massive evidence that no close control was observed over the colour as applied in the factories - this is most noticeable on C-47s, where wings have a greeny-grey, fuselages a lighter almost sandy brown, and tails a dark green, but can also be seen on B-17s and other types.  This is apart from the existence of other colours such as Medium Green.

Whether you call olive a green or a brown is partly a matter of individual taste, as it dwells on the border of these colours.  However I think few will agree with you that all ODs were brown, most appearing distinctly green, at least when new.  Some faded brown, some purple, and some greeny-grey, apart from their initial differences, which makes modelling them so fascinating! 

To get back to the original comment, yes the hypothetical Soviet observer would be quite right in assuming that little colour control was applied to the production of OD, at least during the peak year of the early 40s.  It is clear why similar flexibility has been assumed to apply to Soviet paint production, which would have much better reasons.  Perhaps too much is made of this.  However, to claim totally rigid observation of colour seems equally unsupportable.
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #96 on: May 04, 2010, 07:15:10 AM »


from what I read Olive Drab 319 was for ground vehicles but also found it's way onto aircraft-the C-47,P-38 and B-17 if I recall correctly.
Paul Lucas did a nice write-up of this in Quarter Scale Modeler volume three issue 2
on pages 19-21.
(you wouldn't by any chance have Volume 1 issue 4 ?)
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"when we lose the right to be different, we lose the priviledge to be free"--Charles Evans Hughes
Graham Boak
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« Reply #97 on: May 04, 2010, 01:44:27 PM »

I'm afraid I strongly believe that tales of non-aircraft paint getting onto aircraft on production lines are urban myths.  If OD319 was used on aircraft, then it was in a paint designed for aircraft use, but I'm not familiar with it.

I'll check, but being a 1/72 modeller I didn't normally buy Quarter Scale Modeller.
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2010, 06:28:55 PM »

perhaps I have mis-interpreted it as for ground equipment as it is an Army Corps of Engineers color , not one from the Army Air Corps or Army Air Forces.
not being a ground vehicle expert I can't really say if they used in tanks,jeeps,trucks,etc.
or if they used Field Green or OD Green or something else.
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"when we lose the right to be different, we lose the priviledge to be free"--Charles Evans Hughes
Graham Boak
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« Reply #99 on: May 04, 2010, 06:57:18 PM »

There were a series of colour schemes prepared for the 9thAF in North Africa using Corps of Engineers paints, but none of these designs seem to have been used.  It is suggested that the light colour seen on North African Bostons and Mitchells was a CoE paint, but in lieu of confirmation I have my doubts..
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KL
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« Reply #100 on: May 20, 2010, 08:32:49 AM »

Hypothetical Russian researcher Э. Пелявский strongly believes that US Olive Drab was green, or sometimes black.  His conclusion is based on P-39 and P-63 in Russian museums:

Monino




Poklonaya Gora




Severomorsk




monument in Yakutsk




similar Olive Drab can be found on models and book covers



Does any of the five official OD colours corespond to the green or black colour on posted photos?
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2010, 04:40:47 PM »

I'm not sure where the five official versions come from.  For my source I use Archer's books for Monogram and Schiffer.

Prewar there was shade 22 Olive Drab, with additions 31 Dark Olive Drab and 35 Light Olive Drab.  The prewar colours were replaced by shade 41 Dark Olive Drab, although shade 31 Dark Olive Drab was retained for Temporary camouflage finishes.  The difference between these two appears to be minimal. The US Army (not Army Air Force) had Field Drab No.303 and Olive Drab No 319.  For the USAAF from September 1943 there was an agreed set of common Army/Navy colours which included No 613 Olive Drab.  There has been considerable discussion as to whether the AN colours ever saw significant use, as by the time they were coming available the USAAF had largely abandoned the use of camouflage.  There also appears to have been an attitude of "not invented here" behind their lack of use.  However, in the case of Dark OD the two colours seem to have been identical anyway.

So for the duration of WW2 the only official OD in common use on USAAF aircraft was shade 41 Dark Olive Drab.  Shade 22 will have been long gone, but there could have been some early use of shade 31, and some late use of No.613.  I don't think either of these would have been applicable to P-39s, and all three standards appear to be identical in hue.

As said before, the paint actually applied were not subjected to strong colour control, at least in the early (US) war years.  Therefore a considerable range of hues could be seen in the field, particularly after differential fading, as can be seen in many photographs and mentioned in contemporary records.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2010, 09:04:48 PM »

Hi KL,

Quote
Hypothetical Russian researcher Э. Пелявский strongly believes that US Olive Drab was green, or sometimes black.  His conclusion is based on P-39 and P-63 in Russian museums:

Translating this name, one could note some irony....

However, it's possible that some P-63s flew with green paint, they were repainted at the end of the war. Russian colors, of course.

Hi Graham,
so, the only OD 41 generated all that mess of light and dark colors, brownish, yellowish and greenish?
One could suspect that they could even have made disruptive camouflages all with the same color from different cans. (I'm joking, OC)

Massimo
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2010, 06:03:26 PM »

The British were prepared to accept OD41 as a substitute for either Dark Green or Dark Earth.  Presumably not both on the same aircraft......

If you look at C-47s and B-17s, you can clearly see the existence of different shades where major subassemblies have been built by different subcontractors.  C-47s had pinkish brown fuselages and green wings, B-17s dark fins.  At least one early British modelling reference described the early C-47s as being in Dark Earth.  Memory stutters, but I think this survived to the early Airfix kit.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2010, 02:43:01 PM »

Hi,
I've receved chips of colors of Akan kindly supplied by Troy Smith.
These paints are: AII red, AII z, AII lt blue, A.-14, AMT-4, AMT-6, AMT-7, 11, 12.
I'll find matches to Humbrol paints soon.
To tell the truth, they're dark and semigloss. I'll make new chips of Humbrol for the comparison, my previous ones are very matt and this alters the perception.
If anyone has different colors to find matches, they'll be welcome.
Massimo
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