Re: LaGG-3 saga..Alleluia!!.. (pag. 24)

[66misos]

Massimo,
the second digit on Kostylev's plane does not look like "5". Its top left part is sharp tip, different from top right part of "3" on the same plane as well as different from "5" on the next photo with "35".
Regards,
    66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
can be. What do you suggest as an alternative? 37? I haven't photos of 7 made with the same style.
At this point, one could look for textual sources on Kostylev himself.

Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,
it can be different digit, or it can be "5" but different font. Something similar to this:


 regards,
    66misos

[Markino]

Hello guys, many thanks for all your replies and explanations. I hope there are no quarrels for this discussion, ok?  .

Kostantin, the only reason for my choice about Kostylev's red 35  is that I like this camo, black and green with white distemper, with strange and big number. No other reason for this. I know this camo would be almost hypothetical, but as I said several post before, examining pictures of similar planes with strange numbers, IMHO, is most probable this plane was delivered by plant 23.

I don't built it by force but from several part on the web, also in Russians sites, for what I could understand, even with the automatic translator, I saw that Massimo's Kostylev red 35 is a most probable interpretation.
In other part also, this profile has taken as the most probable; the new flight simulator, BoS (Battle of Stalingrad) has the same profile for the LaGG-3 4th series; they had done a great research for their models. Many of they are Russians.
You are right and I am agree with you when you said there is no pictures about this plane, but for this reason I have to ask for information.

I hope this discussion will shed light on this plane...and his pilot... .

I hope Russians Massimo's friends could find newest information about....

Ciao!

Marco

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
could be of course, but the costant thickness that can be deducted from the photo of the supposed 35 suggests the same font.
At this point, one could look if the same font can be seen on other unrelated types of planes.
I had a suggestion that it could have been typical of the '30s, but my researches on planes of that period haven't shown that font till now.
Supposing that it's the same font, the image of 35 of 44 IAP gives an idea of how 7 could be: the tops of 3 and 5 are specular; 7 should be similar to 3 because it has the leg on the same side (right) and this would exclude that the second number on the photo is 7.
Obviously it can't be 1,2,3,4,6,8,9,0.  
So my idea is that the plane is not the same of 44 IAP, but it was always a white 35 with the number painted in factory; when they made the winter painting, they overpainted the original white number 35 with red paint, but in non perfect way.
What version could it be? If it's built in Zavod 23 in Leningrad, could be of any serie built before the fall, when the factory was evacuated, compatible with a short mast.

Regards
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Marco,
this is very kind of you.
If anything new should emerge, I'll keep you informed.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Hi Massimo and others,
I would suggest we all try less to guess, assume and hypothesis.  Some facts should be taken in account:

-  5 iap VVS KBF and Kostiliev received new LaGG-3s in August 1941 directly from Gorkii Zavod 21.  Those were most likely "standard" Type 4 (although Kaberov mentions 1 cannon, 2 ShKAS and 2 UBS mgs).  Those planes were camouflaged in "standard" 1941 camouflage scheme (with "black half disc", you know what I mean).

- 44 iap PVO received LaGG-3s from Leningrad Zavod 23 in autumn 1941.  Those were definitively camouflaged in "stripes" and had reduced armament (these were known as "late Zavod 23" series)

- In 1941 tactical numbers were drawn in units, never in factories.  Same font was a pure coincidence.

- It is extremely unlikely that Navy and Air Force regiments exchange planes.  Then for a plane to retain its old tactical number in a new unit - unheard of....   

[66misos]

Hi,
Lavochkin LaGG 3S3 44GvIAP white 20 Leningrad area 1941-02:

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/LaGG-3/LaGG-3S3-44GvIAP-white-20.html



     66misos

[KL]

Lavochkin LaGG 3S3 44GvIAP white 20 Leningrad area 1941-02:

44 GvIAP didn't exist...  44 iap PVO became 11 giap in March 1942.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin, what you say is true, but take also in account that:

• both units were in Leningrad area, where Zavod 23 operated in summer and fall before being evacuated (this is a fact);
  the text of Kaberov says that 5 IAP VVS KBF received 10 planes in August from Zavod 21 (this is a fact too); it certainly received further planes in successive months (this is an assumption, but the contrary looks absurd), unclear from which factory (possibly the closer one), in consideration that the photo is certainly dated in winter or after (this is an assumption too, but the contrary looks absurd).

The idea that 35 was one of the 10 planes delivered in August is an assumption  (your, not mine). A possibility, yes.

Another related point is the variety of camo patterns seen in 44 IAP, always related with the font.
Is this variety made in factory? Perhaps, but if so they should be visible in other units too.
Made at the unit? But why? If they received the planes in Autumn, they should be camouflaged in factory. If the datation of the photos is right, those planes should be rather new.

At this point, there are a lot of hypothesis still to check:
1- as already hypotized, the number could be painted in factory; to see if it's true, one has to check the look of other planes built in z.23 in the same period;
2- could be painted at the unit, and the font of Kostylev's plane be a coincidence; in this case, other planes of 5 IAP should show similar fonts;
3- could be painted in some maintenance facility that served both units; if so, it would be independant from the factory and unit; but were the planes of 44 iap already passed for that facility when photographed?
4- the plane was originally of 44 iap that painted the number, then went to a maintenance facility that painted the winter livery on the base of the previous one and then passed it to 5 iap in winter. Being not the same 35 of 44 IAP, one can think that the original number was different: 3x. The first digit was preserved, and the second was repainted according to the wished of the new unit, taking the old font as a reference.

There is another thing in common between 35 and the planes of 44 IAP: if the numbers have the same size and position, there can't be the red star on the fuselage. Not on the usual position and size, unless the numbers are overposed to it. Just as on the planes of 44 IAP. Please check photos of Lavochkins: I don't know other units without the star on the fuselage.

All assumptions, I know. The fact is what we see on the photo: only the canopy and the top of the number, the balance weight and the mast.
The plane isn't the same 35 of the other photo, unless its mast was changed. The plane could be of any variant compatible with the date and short mast, of any factory.
My guess is that it has much in common with the planes of 44 IAP: the font and the absence of the star. If this is casual, I don't know.

Hi Misos,
good photo. The camo pattern appears relatively normal, I mean similar to what was standardized from late 1941 up to 1943. But I can't see any star on the fuselage. I wonder if they were deleted at the unit.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Hi Massimo,
the profile you made and which supposedly represents Kostiliev's LaGG-3 is hypothetical more than it should be:

- Number 35 is hypothetical; it could be 75 or several other combinations involving 3, 5 and 7
- it's hypothetically made in Zavod 23, although we know that Kostiliev's regiment received LaGG-3s from Zavod 21
- it was hypothetically camouflaged the same way as 44 iap PVO planes only because its tactical number is drawn in similar stile to numbers used on 44 iap LaGG-3s

IMHO, unless more information about this plane appears, the profile and all the hypothesis surrounding it are not worth further discussion.

Regards,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
yes, the profile is widely hypothetical.
Anyway, numbers with 2 digits could arrive up to 99, but lower numbers as 35 are more likely than high numbers as 75, particularly if painted at the unit. The second one is certainly 5 for the resons I've already explained.
The incidence on the pattern of the camouflage is limited to one or two black bands on the nose.

Marco, to tell the truth I've always thought this: after such an huge work of accuratizing, I would choose a more clearly documented plane for your rebuilt model.

Regards
Massimo

[Markino]

Hello guys and many thanks for your replies and efforts to have a good idea about Kostylev's red 35.
I am agree with all you, Massimo, KL, Misos66, and I think is not the case to continue with a not clearly documented plane, although very appealing with its camo...
It will be absurd to wrong the final camo and so the whole kit, after a heavy rebuilt work.

So my previous second choice, when I started to built this kit, was white 44: http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/44iap/44iap44.html

I think this is a good documented plane. What do you think about?

I am sorry if discussion about Kostylev's plane has some quarrels. I hope this drive in the future to know more info about Kostylev's red 35...

Ciao.

Marco

 

[KL]

Marco, to tell the truth I've always thought this: after such an huge work of accuratizing, I would choose a more clearly documented plane for your rebuilt model.

I agree with this, that was my message too.  After spending so much time and effort correcting the model you would compromise it with poorly documented camouflage and markings.

So my previous second choice, when I started to built this kit, was white 44: http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/44iap/44iap44.html

I think this is a good documented plane. What do you think about?

IMHO, a good choice:  clearly there was a camouflage pattern on 44 iap PVO planes so you may use photos of other planes for some analogies.  Being made by Zavod 23, 44 iap LaGG-3s were also "rare birds"; that will make your model more interesting....   

I am sorry if discussion about Kostylev's plane has some quarrels. I hope this drive in the future to know more info about Kostylev's red 35...

I hope it wasn't a quarrel.  I also hope discussion will help Massimo to improve his work.

Regards,
KL

[Markino]

Hi KL, many thanks for helping me in choosing a good subject!!   

See you soon with new updates of the kit. In this time I am working on wing details; hood; spinner; machine guns.

Ciao!

Marco