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Author Topic: Colours of a captured Bf-109 F?  (Read 8176 times)
marluc
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« on: April 25, 2010, 02:44:11 PM »

Hello everyone:

I?m about to begin the painting process of a Bf-109,and I want to finish it just like the one in this picture:


According to one source,this photo was taken after being repaired and repainted in soviet colours,and before being handed over to the NII-VVS for test flights,in March 1942.
The question is,was it painted in AII or AMT colours? What do you think?
Thanks in advance for your help,greetings.

Martin
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John Thompson
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 07:26:41 PM »

I'm going to guess wildly here; since AMT-4 and AMT-7 apparently (if I read the table in Vakhlamov and Orlov's M-Hobby article correctly) came into use in 1941, these would seem to be the likely colours, if in fact the whole aircraft was repainted. Maybe AMT-4 on top, and RLM-whatever left on the bottom, with the German crosses overpainted with AMT-7 (or a lighter blue, to try to match?) before the red stars were applied? It's hard to tell from the photo, but it appears that only one uppersurface colour is used. Someone else may know of more helpful images of this aircraft.

John
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2010, 09:20:58 PM »

Hi, I suppose that the undersurfaces were painted with solid light blue to delete yellow bands. I don't see differences on shade under the wing.
Perhaps the landing gear and the part of undersurface between them preserved the German color, it looks somewhat darker.
I think to see some remains of the German mottled camouflage above the exhaust pipes, probably they avoided to spray paint on them.
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2010, 01:19:51 AM »

Thanks John and Massimo for your kind help.I think that the plane was repainted all around,there?s another photo of this Bf-109 F-2:


This image shows that the underside was a solid colour.But a not repainted underside as proposed by John,would make this bird more interesting.Regarding the mottled effect above the exhaust pipes,perhaps it was a not very well painted green colour or the exhaust fumes.And as Massimo,I think that the landing gear (and wheel wells) were left in RLM 02.
So,the Messer will go in AMT-4/AMT-7.Best regards.

Martin
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 09:05:13 PM by marluc » Logged
John Thompson
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2010, 02:36:40 AM »

Maybe someone else will have more information? I was really only guessing! The reason I suggested AMT-4 for the upper surfaces was only because, when I read your post, I looked at some profiles of captured Bf-109Gs on Wings Palette (there were no Bf-109F profiles) and on these, any repainting that was done was represented by the artist in a dark green colour. That's all the information I had! Since then I also checked Geust's "Red Stars 1" and "Red Stars 3" (haven't got 2), but found nothing more on the Bf-109F (there were two Bf-109G-2s, though).

John
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2010, 07:19:58 AM »

Hi John, hi Martin,
AMT-4 is the most reasonable guess. Note that the paint is matt, while AII green would have been gloss.
The dark shade at the wingroot is compatible with fumes, if you consider the rotation of the prop.
The green layer looks solid on the rear fuselage to delete the marks, but I think to see a trace of discontinuity behind the canopy. It seems that the green layer was very soft and let see some trace of the underlying German camo on the nose sides. To my eye, this makes the plane more interesting.
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2010, 11:32:14 PM »

Thanks John Massimo for sharing your points of view regarding this Bf-109.

Maybe someone else will have more information? I was really only guessing!
I?m guessing too,John!!! And it?s due to the fact that the scarse information I?ve found about this plane is contradictory.And your suggestion of AMT-4 is a very logical guess.

I also checked Geust's "Red Stars 1" and "Red Stars 3" (haven't got 2), but found nothing more on the Bf-109F John
I?ve already checked it too.Red Stars 2 covers ground attack and bomber planes.

Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
...but I think to see a trace of discontinuity behind the canopy...
I can see the discontinuity too in the photo from the front,but not on the side picture.

Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
It seems that the green layer was very soft and let see some trace of the underlying German camo on the nose sides. To my eye, this makes the plane more interesting.
No doubt this feature would make it more interesting.

Gentlemen,your help is very appreciated,greetings.

Martin
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KL
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 06:06:38 PM »

The question is,was it painted in AII or AMT colours? What do you think?

Hi Martin,

my guessing:

For those who restored and repainted this Me-109F, it was a metal plane and they must have used paints for metal.  In 1942 those would be A-24m green and A-28m light blue oil paints.  Both paints were matt, as Massimo pointed.

Another option, somewhat less likely, would be alkyd paints A-18f and A-19f.  Those paints were used on metal planes made between summer 1940 and summer 1941 (dark grass green top / blue-gray bottom painted SB, Ar-2, Pe-2, Pe-8 etc).  A-18f and A-19f were glossy when new.    


Interpretation of colours from b/w photos is a slippery slope, but since we are all guessing, I would go with  A-18f and A-19f.  Planes made in 1940-41 on many photos look dark and their red stars are almost undistinguishable from green background, same as on your Bf-109F:




On the other hand A-24m (and its nitro equivalent AMT-4) was bright olive green.  On b/w photos it was usually much lighter then red star.  I could be wrong here....

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 06:10:52 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2010, 09:37:57 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
the look of red stars is greatly influenced by the film and filter, so it can't be taken as a reference. It can go from white to black. Usually black on German photos.
I think that A.18f and A-19f were gloss; this seems not to be the case of the 109.
In my idea, AMT-4 or its oil equivalent are likely.
Take in account that the control surfaces of the M-109 were covered by fabric, and I don't think that they were so careful to change the paint. Note the rough work that they made over the exhaust pipes...
Besides, I suppose that, being the surface of the plane already painted, there is not difference between overpaint it with paints for metal or for fabric.
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2010, 10:13:22 PM »

... but since we are all guessing, I would go with  A-18f and A-19f.
Thanks Konstantin for sharing your knowledege and point of view,I?ll take this option into account until the moment I start to paint the model.

I think that the plane looks dark due to the reflexion of the light in the snow,this is an effect often seen in this kind of photo,with a snowy enviroment I mean.And regarding the kind of paint,in my humble opinion,it should have been used the most available paints for the repainting,the AMT range perhaps?
Best regards.

Martin
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marluc
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2011, 09:15:01 PM »

Hello:

I?ve found this picture that (i guess) is of the captured Bf-109 F-2.



The propeller blades look like they have a very worn winter whitewash.
Greetings.

Martin
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