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Author Topic: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours  (Read 16353 times)
Graham Boak
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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2010, 10:28:44 AM »

The colourised example has been painted into a B pattern, but it's not what I see (dimly, very unclearly).  I think I see a darker colour (the green) coming over the nose, visible only as a small segment behnd the spinner.  Then a slightly lighter area, then a darker area over the wing.  That's A pattern.  I accept that this is based only on staring at a computer screen, that the actual photos may give a different impression, and that it is far from definite.  I've no intention of jumping up and down to insist that it must be an A pattern, but that is my impression.
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marluc
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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2010, 04:04:47 AM »

Hello:

Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
I think to see a discontinuity in color under the sencond strut of the rudder.
I see it too,and there?s a stain of the same tone over the second rudder rib.Probably,the underside of the fuselage behind the tail wheel and the lower part of the rudder were brush painted with AII Green (or AMT-4?),perhaps due to a field repair.

Quote from: Graham Boak
I've no intention of jumping up and down to insist that it must be an A pattern, but that is my impression.
Graham,the intention of this thread is to share our differents points of view and impressions regarding the colours of this Hurricane.Just like you,I think that this plane is painted in the "A" pattern,but Massimo interpretation is very logical too.And I must say that at first glance,at least to my eyes,it looked like the plane was overpainted all over in a dark colour with light coloured patches on the sides.
Thanks to both of you for your help,greetings.

Martin
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marluc
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2010, 05:04:01 PM »

Hello:

I?ve edited the profiles.






Looking closely at this picture,I?ve noticed that the line between the yellow leading edge band and the camouflage colour is not even,it looks a little bit dented. (green arrows in the picture).And  the red patch over the gun ports is not perfectly square,there?s some kind of overpainting. (red circle in the picture)



Because of this finding and due to the fact that the RAF camo pattern is undistinguishable in all the photos of ?white 42?,I?m starting to think that this Hurricane was completely overpainted,but leaving the yellow leading edge bands.and rear fuselage sky band untouched.

So there are three colour options for this plane:

-Upper camouflage overpainted with soviet colours,but no paint over the Yellow and Sky bands.

-?B? scheme camo pattern with patches of AMT-1 replacing the Dark Earth and RAF markings overpainted with AMT-4 (or AII Green?),as proposed by Massimo

-?A? scheme camo pattern with patches of AMT-1 (or another light colour) and RAF markings overpainted with AMT-4 (or AII Green?),as suggested by Graham.

Greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2010, 05:50:56 PM »

Hi Martin, Smiley
I see the irregularities on the yellow and red stripe.
It is possible that the plane has been overpainted with Soviet colors, but it's difficult to explain why they haven't deleted the sky band nor the yellow on leading edges.
Yellow was the distinctive color of axis planes, it's difficult for me to think that Russians carefully avoided to overpaint it, if they put their brush on the wings.
Massimo
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2010, 10:47:17 AM »

I also find it difficult to believe in a complete repaint that retained the Sky and yellow trim, but more significantly perhaps a complete repaint that then retouched the paint over the fin flash, for this is clearly visible.
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marluc
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2010, 09:50:17 PM »

I think just like you do.Perhaps,only the wing was extensively overpainted.Anyway,is really hard to make out the real appearance of this Hurricane despite the fact that many pictures are available.
Thanks Massimo and Graham for sharing your points of view and your help.Greetings.

Martin
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2010, 06:21:11 PM »

The photo has also been discussed on Britmodeller. It is pointed out that the yellow leading edge was introduced with the Day Fighter Scheme of Dark Green and Ocean Grey, post August 1941.  It would not normally be seen on aircraft in the earlier scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth.

I would comment further that aircraft intended for overseas use were painted in DG/DE, if not in the Desert scheme.  Whether this would apply to an aircraft being overhauled for service in Russia is open to doubt, but seems possible.  However, the yellow trim would not be expected to be reapplied.

Do we have a date for the photo and/or delivery of this aircraft?
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marluc
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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2010, 10:24:05 PM »

It is pointed out that the yellow leading edge was introduced with the Day Fighter Scheme of Dark Green and Ocean Grey, post August 1941.  It would not normally be seen on aircraft in the earlier scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth.

Thanks for the info Graham,so "white 42" should be DG/OG,but why the camouflage pattern can?t be seen clearly?

Do we have a date for the photo and/or delivery of this aircraft?

This is the text bellow the photos:





Greetings.

Martin
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2010, 11:51:19 PM »

That's a very good question.  I can come up with three possible answers, none entirely satisfying.

1.  The aircraft was not in service at the time of the change of colours, and was not repainted before sending to Russia.  The early date makes this just about possible - this could be disproved from the service history on the aircraft's record card in the National Archives.  In this case why the yellow leading edge?

2.  The aircraft was painted in Mixed Grey rather than Ocean Grey, because of shortage of the approved paint.  The early date makes this quite likely, and the Mixed Grey was often darker than the proper colour - but not often that dark.

3.  The aircraft has been significantly repainted in Russian service - this has been discussed already and I find the arguments against this fairly compelling.

By the way, looking at the starboard side view, I can see a demarcation between the dark camouflage around the cockpit area amd a lighter colour over the cowling.  This demarcation passes over the top of the cowling ahead of the cockpit, then sweeps aft before turning downwards.  This is a classic Hurricane paint feature of the A pattern, and is another indication that the aircraft has not been fully repainted.  The dark area is partially overpainted by the light patch, making it very unlikely that the light patch could be a residual feature of an overpainted Ocean Grey scheme.  (Not that I think you imagine this, but it has been suggested elsewhere.)

Another point raised on Britmodeller: there is a dark square under the middle exhaust on the port side.  This is where the Polish insignia was when this aircraft served in 316 Sq.  This again points to the original RAF camouflage being retained, as this detail would have been obliterated in any Soviet repaint.  It would be interesting to know when the aircraft served with 316.

So far, it looks like option 1 still, but someone has painted the leading edge yellow.  Note that it appears to be too wide at the wingtip: official instructions had the width narrowing with span.  This may mean nothing more than a crude job.

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marluc
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« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2010, 04:22:47 AM »

Hi Graham:

I?ve been reading the thread in Britmodeller: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50604
I would like to thank Kari Lumppio for his interesting comments and the information regarding the early service of Z2585.Because of this,I made a little search of the 316 Sqn "City of Warsaw" and found this link: http://polishsquadronsremembered.com/316/41/1941_hurricane_pics.html

By the way, looking at the starboard side view, I can see a demarcation between the dark camouflage around the cockpit area amd a lighter colour over the cowling.  This demarcation passes over the top of the cowling ahead of the cockpit, then sweeps aft before turning downwards.
Now I see this subtle demarcation line on the rigth side,that can also be seen in the photos taken from the rear.

Another point raised on Britmodeller: there is a dark square under the middle exhaust on the port side.  This is where the Polish insignia was when this aircraft served in 316 Sq.
Yes,you?re right.And must say that looking at the pictures of 316 Sqn Hurricanes,they had the squadron badge in the rear fuselage,bellow the antenna mast,there?s a decoloration (pointed out by Massimo in one of the replies of this thread) just at the same place in "white 42",the badge was overpainted perhaps?
Two images to be compared,Hurricane of 316 Sqn and "white 42":



So far, it looks like option 1 still, but someone has painted the leading edge yellow.  Note that it appears to be too wide at the wingtip: official instructions had the width narrowing with span.  This may mean nothing more than a crude job.
The Hurricanes in 316 Sqn service had the Sky band in the rear but not the leading edge yellow band.So, was it painted before sending this Hurricane to the URSS? And why?
Now there?re many possible camouflage sechemes for this "white 42".Thanks for your comments,greetings.

Martin
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 04:37:15 AM by marluc » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2010, 07:35:34 AM »

Hi Graham and Martin,
this imput is interesting.
The position of the repainting close to the mast pointed by Martin is interesting, and points to the deletion of the mark with the scorpion. However, if compared to the position of the mast and of rails, the repainting is located in a slightly lower and backwarded position than the mark of plane SZ, and this means that it's not exactly the same plane.
The planes seen in http://polishsquadronsremembered.com/316/41/1941_hurricane_pics.html suggest the A scheme on the planes shown, but for me it's difficult to leave a rational explanation for the shape and position of the light repaintings, that are the only thing easily visible on the photos of 42.
Massimo
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 02:04:50 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Graham Boak
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« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2010, 10:38:14 AM »

Not 67 but the squadron code SZ.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2010, 01:51:30 PM »

Quote
Not 67 but the squadron code SZ.
Thank you
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marluc
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« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2010, 04:13:30 AM »

Hello Massimo and Graham:

However, if compared to the position of the mast and of rails, the repainting is located in a slightly lower and backwarded position than the mark of plane SZ, and this means that it's not exactly the same plane.

You?re right Massimo.So,could the overpainting be the dark zone behind the sliding hood rails? (green circle in this image)


And,as a matter of fact,it was not my intention to prove that the 316 Sqn Hurricane in the picture was Z2585,as it looks like all the planes in the squadron had the unit badge in the same location and on both sides.
Greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2010, 07:15:14 AM »

Hi Martin,
that is possible, of course. But the image seems to show a light repainting, as you puntualized the first time.
Massimo
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