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FPSOlkor
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« on: July 03, 2010, 04:46:00 PM » |
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Feel free to discuss them...
BTW, Massimo, you forgot to make a link from main page...
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« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 06:50:12 PM by FPSOlkor »
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2010, 01:04:51 PM » |
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Hi, an interesting note from Oleg: I asked Sergei Isakovich about paint, and he confirmed his words - La-5 No25 that he had was the only uncamouflaged single green airplane in the regiment. Others had different coloring. There were at the same time black-green, green-green, and three color camouflages, that were later replaced by standart gray-gray airplanes. Massimo |
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KL
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2010, 07:29:34 PM » |
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By the way, it says something about green/sandish grey and overall green La-5, unfortunately without photos.
Massimo
Original interview text from iremember.ru is: Когда я впервые в полк пришел, то цвет - серо-зеленый, серый с желтоватенькой, с разводом. А этот "25-й номер" такой чисто зеленый без камуфляжа...When I first came to the regiment, the colour was ? gray-green, gray with yellow hue, with separation. That ?No 25? was solid green without camouflage? Sand is not mentioned?How to approach piece of information like this one? Gray-green and gray with yellow hue were nonstandard colours in 1943-45. Solid green was a nonstandard scheme. If there were discrepancies in events, people, or victories, researchers would turn to the original documents or to what is known from literature. Same should be done here: from documents and literature it is known now that the standard scheme for the period in question was gray-dark gray. When Nasilevits mentioned ?gray-green, gray with yellow hue, with separation? he most likely referred to the standard gray-dark gray scheme. ?No 25? may have been one of a kind field application. Or, maybe, a late war solid gray scheme. Three color camouflage is something Nasilevits saw on Il-2s. There was no ?green-dark green? scheme (there was no dark green paint!), but green-black scheme when weathered, or simply from the distance, could look like green-dark green. Cheers, KL |
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« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 07:37:46 PM by KL »
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2010, 09:24:04 PM » |
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Hi Konstantin,
it could be, but from the interview I would say the veteran looks quite in his own mind, so there is the possibility that some unit had nonstandard schemes. About dark green, it could be obtained by mixing green and black.
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2010, 04:40:55 PM » |
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Hi, some new details from Oleg: I called Sergei Isakovich and asked questions you wanted
When he came to regiment there were mainly Green-green cammo planes, but some old ones were present with Green-black(or very dark green) cammo. As war raged on, damaged planes were repaired, but due to lack of paint and time they sometimes were let in to the air with primer only, which was of sandy appearance. light Green colour after exposure to light for a long time changed shades and became a bit yellowish. When he recieved a plane in Gorkii, there were three kinds of paint finish on the planes: Green camo, gray camo, and his only plane with one green. When he returned to regiment it was equipped with La-5FNs and La-7s with gray-gray cammo.
Inscription was in white letters on the left side of the fuselage between metal plate of the exhaust shield and red star and said За боевого друга и товарища Виктора Федосеева .
Hope you will be able to read it. Massimo |
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KL
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2010, 08:36:20 AM » |
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Hi Massimo, Last part of the Vahlamov?s and Orlov?s text (M-Hobby No 5 -1999) describes some practices in maintenance units during GPW. http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxhWLBc9http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxhWLGbrIt is based on the memories of V.V. Pshenichnov. From 1941 to 1945 V.V. Pshenichnov commanded PARM-1 No 1087 with 562 IAP PVO. This unit repaired damaged Yaks. In short and related to this tread: Planes were not painted according to the official schemes (apparently they didn?t know about them). Planes were camouflaged so that they looked like the other planes that arrived to the unit. Some of those planes were factory painted, others were overhauled or belonged to other units, so although all planes were Yaks, there was a lot of variability.
Only AMT nitro lacquers were used. No tank, car or any other non-aviation paints.
Paints were not mixed to get a required colour. If there wasn?t enough paint of certain colour, the camouflage scheme was modified.I hope this may help to explain mysterious ?green ? dark green scheme?. Cheers, KL |
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 04:34:23 PM » |
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Hi Konstantin,
thank you for posting these pages. However I had already read them in the rough translation posted on Arcforum.
To tell the truth, they don't explain the schemes remembered by the veteran. I don't know if he is right or not, but let's see if he offers more elements...
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2010, 07:20:27 PM » |
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Hi Massimo,  Pshenichnov clearly explains what colours were used and what colours were not used during the GPW. About dark green, it could be obtained by mixing green and black. Pshenichnov said that paints were not mixed. Apply some logic: both factories and maintenance units used only the standard colours that were in production at the time. Why would anybody mix paints??? To obtain non-standard colours - colours with no official names??? To use them in camouflage schemes that were different than officially prescribed schemes??? We are talking about the army in war times: if high level authorities prescribed (commanded, ordered) a camouflage scheme, the lower ranks had to follow the order and apply the scheme. If one was allowed to mix green and black to obtain dark green, why not mixing green and red to obtain brown??? Or, mixing blue and red to obtain purple? Or, mixing red and white to obtain pink??? Cheers, KL |
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2010, 10:47:43 PM » |
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Hi Konstantin,
he wrote that in PARM -1 this was not done. If he ignored the templates, some units could have ignored to use pure paints.
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2010, 12:53:43 AM » |
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Hi Massimo, he wrote that in PARM -1 this was not done. If he ignored the templates, some units could have ignored to use pure paints.
Pshenichnov didn?t ignore templates; he didn?t know about them.His approach to the camouflage was very practical and logical. Camouflage of repaired planes was simply restored. He also said that planes were painted to look like other planes ? in other words: no improvisation, no new colours? But let?s conclude this discussion: material evidences exist only for black-green and gray-dark gray camouflage schemes (mind you  , those are the two official schemes).   Cheers, KL |
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2010, 09:34:31 AM » |
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Hi Konstantin, yes, but Pshenichnov didn't see and paint all the planes of the VVS, nor wrote that all the planes came to his shop always painted according to standards. So, if a pilot describes his plane in different way and has described other planes of his unit with three or four schemes (including black/green and grey/grey amongst these, it would have been unreliable if he didn't mention these) it worts to see what he has to say. Massimo |
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FPSOlkor
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2010, 02:48:05 PM » |
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 02:53:35 PM by FPSOlkor »
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KL
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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2010, 09:58:08 PM » |
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Hi Oleg,
Thank you very much for all those interesting interviews and the effort to translate them.
Also, thanks for the link to Ilya Prokofiyev?s photos ? very usefull.
Hi Massimo,
The interview is definitely worth reading.
I am not questioning everything Nasilevets said. His memories are interesting and valuable evidence.
But, his memories are subjective: that?s how he saw colours and how he remembers them after 65+ years. He was a pilot, colours and paints were not his field of expertise.
If something in the interview is questionable, like dark green colour in this case, it should be first checked against the relevant documents and period literature. Then it could be compared with the memories of other participants/veterans. That is what I tried to do:
There was no official green-dark green scheme
Only green colour used on fighters during GPW was olive green AMT-4
Pshenichnov?s memoirs don?t leave too much room for any other green
Everything else that Nasilevets said can fit within the framework of official documents, even solid AMT-4 green La-5.
If you picture 161 IAP planes as colourful as Richthofens Flying Circus, that is your interpretation of the interview. It?s an interpretation based on speculation (if they didn?t do something, why would others do something else?), not based on relevant evidence.
Some 25 years ago I participated in an interview with a mechanic who worked on Il-2s at the end of war. When we asked him about Shturmovic?s colours, he said something like ?I cant?t remember? they were green? or maybe gray??
That?s all that I can remember from maybe 30 minutes interview. I even can?t remember his name!
Cheers,
KL
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 11:52:01 PM by KL »
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