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Author Topic: Alelyukhin's La-7 ''white 14" camouflage  (Read 6943 times)
mholly
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« on: September 12, 2010, 05:53:36 AM »

Eduard kit shows just AMT-11 on top. Anyone has some pix to prove/disprove it?
TIA
Mario
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John Thompson
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 10:23:51 PM »

Here are some images which I believe I saved from Scalemodels.ru, although the original source might have been elsewhere - the Osprey Aces series volume 15 may have something in it:







Good luck, and let us know what you decide!

John
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 12:12:17 AM by John Thompson » Logged
mholly
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 11:58:39 PM »

Thanks a lot John!
I could only open the 2nd pic (??), and it looks like 2-color camo.
Mario
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John Thompson
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2010, 01:02:38 AM »

Aaaargh!!! Okay, try it now - I went in and editted the links. I had a somewhat longer reply prepared before I posted that, but it vanished when I tried to check a certain radial-engined Lavochkins CD which autoboots into the browser but grabs the existing open window, not a new window, and my original reply disappeared into Electronic Never-Never Land. Very frustrating! Anyway, the bad links are my fault for being in a hurry to enter the replacement response - I should have checked the links before posting.

By the way, I found my copy of Osprey Aces volume 15; the first and third photos of Alelyukhin and his La-7 posted above are (as far as I know) copyrighted by Gennadiy Petrov. I don't know where the second photo (the side view of the whole aircraft) came from - it's not in volume 15 (VVS Aces) or the LaGG and Lavochkin Aces Osprey book either.

There's another photo in one of the books which shows Alelyukhin posing on the wing of his La-7; I was hoping to find it somewhere on the Internet so I could avoid scanning and posting it, but so far, no luck. I also hoped to find something on the Scalemodels.ru forum, but at the moment their site seems to be down!  Angry I'll try again later...

John
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 02:16:12 AM by John Thompson » Logged
John Thompson
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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2010, 02:11:55 AM »

Thanks a lot John!
I could only open the 2nd pic (??), and it looks like 2-color camo.
Mario

Since this is basically a guessing game, let me try, too. In the first photo, the inscription under the cockpit is shown in only one dark colour. In the third photo, the inscription on the other side of the fuselage is in a dark colour, but outlined in a lighter colour. Possible explanations:
(1) The photos were taken on two different occasions, and the outline was added later to make it "prettier" for the second photo-opportunity.
(2) AMT-12 is awfully close to black. If the inscriptions are in black, not red, then the text would appear reasonably well against an AMT-11 background without the outline (on the left side of the fuselage, in the first image), but not well at all against AMT-12 (on the right side, in the third image). Looking at the third photo, the paint on the fuselage in the area around the red star looks lighter than the paint below the cockpit where the inscription is. I know, this can be explained in several ways, but if you take it exactly as the photo appears, it does suggest that the area around the star is AMT-11 and the area below the cockpit is AMT-12. So, here's a profile I found somewhere on the Internet:



This might be the most accurate rendering of Alelyukhin's La-7, although it doesn't help us much, because I'm almost certain the Eduard La-7 decals are red and white, not black!  Roll Eyes

John
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 02:38:58 AM by John Thompson » Logged
John Thompson
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 03:11:06 AM »

On the other hand, maybe the La-7 is RED, with no inscription - scroll down a bit on this page:

http://alternathistory.org.ua/istrebitel-la-7-aviakollektsiya-11-za-2009-skachat

 Shocked

John
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mholly
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2010, 03:21:38 AM »

Hi John,
Thanks a lot for all this. What a puzzle! Now I have to deal with black inscription?
Anyhow it does look that camo was in 2 grays. At least something.
And thanks for the link.
Cheers,
Mario
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John Thompson
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2010, 03:32:55 AM »

Here's the image I was trying to find - scroll down a bit!

http://balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=143825

I found it using Google and the Russian text for "La-7 Alelyukhin" - Ла-7 АЛЕЛЮХИН - try it; maybe you'll find more than I did. Regardless, in this photo there certainly appears to be two upper-surface camouflage colours, not only on the fuselage side, but also on the leading edge of the wing.

John
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 03:56:45 AM by John Thompson » Logged
mholly
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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2010, 06:02:04 PM »

Thanks again John. Funny, Eduard instructions attribute this a/c to P.Golovachev!!!
Btw do you about some proof (besides EP) for AMT-11 only camo?
Mario
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John Thompson
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2010, 06:35:38 PM »

I know of nothing that would confirm the overall AMT-11 colour; the images I've seen seem to show AMT-11/AMT-12. It's a difficult question; possibly another case of wrong information being repeated again and again. Maybe Konstantin or Massimo have some contacts or information that would at least suggest where the AMT-11-only idea started originally?

EDIT - I was only referring to Alelyukhin's aircraft here, and only to the available photos of that La-7. I'm not saying there weren't other aircraft finished in AMT-11, with no other upper colour.

John
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 02:48:46 AM by John Thompson » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2010, 08:49:30 PM »

Hi John,

Quote
I know of nothing that would confirm the overall AMT-11 colour; the images I've seen seem to show AMT-11/AMT-12. It's a difficult question; possibly another case of wrong information being repeated again and again. Maybe Konstantin or Massimo have some contacts or information that would at least suggest where the AMT-11-only idea started originally?
In EP's book, some photos seem to show such planes. ex. those at pag.72.
It's amazing to see how light can the AMT-12 look on some planes. The difference with AMT-11 is scarcely visible. Or it was extremely quick to fade, or it was sometimes replaced by some other grey, maybe some mix of light blue and black.
Massimo
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mholly
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 10:01:29 AM »

Hi Massimo,
I re-read V/O writing about introduction and application of AMT-11/12/7 scheme. They also describe in details the whole technology of  painting (applicable to all fighters) such as glue, putty etc. and by the way last coat before applying camo paints, on wooden and fabric surfaces, was AII aluminum as a primer!
Then AMT-12 (darker gray), was applied FIRST followed by AMT-11! At no point do they mention any deviation from this practice, by any "zavod", to AMT-11 solid top coat, until the end of war. It looks like another "discovery" by senor Pilawskii. He may have confused himself with postwar AGT-10 gray. V/O also say that AMT-11/12 were pretty stable and their low contrast in period pix is due to very low coefficient of reflectivity-9%+.
In reality both colors were fairly dark, matter of fact AMT-12 was meant to replace AMT-6 black!
Famous Dolgushin's La-7 may therefore be another myth. As far as I know only 1 pic of this a/c exists showing just the tail.
Cheers,
Mario
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2010, 02:09:14 PM »

Hi Mario, Smiley
Quote
They also describe in details the whole technology of  painting (applicable to all fighters) such as glue, putty etc. and by the way last coat before applying camo paints, on wooden and fabric surfaces, was AII aluminum as a primer!


The yellowish  is visible where the paint is scratched, and where the fabric layer covering the wooden surface has been removed by souvenir hunters.
The internal surfaces of wooden structures and of fabric covered metal structures (ailerons, elevators, rudder) have been described as silver, even if they resembles as white on this photo.



Again, only yellowish putty is visible through the scratches.

Quote
V/O also say that AMT-11/12 were pretty stable and their low contrast in period pix is due to very low coefficient of reflectivity-9%+.
In reality both colors were fairly dark, matter of fact AMT-12 was meant to replace AMT-6 black!

Having a look to a well known source, there is a famous photo with Yak-9s n.930 and 935 on EP's book at pag.183.
The first plane is very light, the second very dark. Then, what are the colors of the first one?
The scheme is that of 11/12.
Supposing that the second one was 4/6,  we can see that dark grey AMT-12 appears lighter even of green AMT-4.
Clearly this is not what we see on all photos, on some AMT-12 appears really dark.
Besides I've seen photos of partially repainted planes where fresh colors were much much darker than the older ones.
Always on the same book, pag.184, there is a photo of a downed Yak-9 with strongly darker repainting.

Regards, Massimo Smiley






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KL
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2010, 07:51:39 PM »

Just to add few details about AII Aluminum (a.k.a. AII Silver) primer:

AII Aluminum was a mix of clear nitro-cellulose lacquer and Al powder.  It was widely used in late 1930-es as external paint for fabric covered surfaces on trainers and fighters (I-16, I-15bis, I-153).

From 1940 it was used as a primer for fabric covered surfaces.  Its role was to protect fabric from UV light.  Coloured AII and AMT nitro-cellulose lacquers were actually transparent (some light passed through them).  AII Silver layer reflected light before it affected fabric.  It was found that AII Silver coating doubles the useful life of the fabric.

During the war it wasn?t always applied ? adverse effects of UV light were not the main reason for short life expectancy of frontline planes.  Photos posted by Massimo confirm this.

KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2010, 08:33:52 PM »

Hi,
it is possible that the alumium lacquer was utilized as primier for fabric covered surfaces (the inside is of this color), maybe excluding the fabric that covered the wood parts that was impregnated by yellow putty.
Massimo
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