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Author Topic: winter paint mk-7  (Read 5043 times)
mholly
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« on: September 09, 2010, 09:43:14 AM »

Hi Massimo,
We would really need to know the exact date when these pix were taken in order to arrive at more probable conclusions.
Based on what do you suppose it's from early 1942?
Over-painting kasein based paint (which was easily washable!) with nitro-cellulose paint doesn't sound technically feasible not even during chaotic conditions. There was no nitro-cellulose alternative to MK-7 if I'm not mistaken (in which this a/c could have been delivered during winter 41-42). What comes to mind is AII Aluminum used as primer. A/c could have been delivered as such and painted at unit level. But again when did this happen? Had it really been in 1942 new camo directive (green-black) was fully applicable (remind you to all a/c i.e. manufactured, under repair and already delivered) so it's difficult to explain the appearance of this a/c.
Cheers,
Mario
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 01:35:11 PM »

Hi Mario, Smiley
I have seen photos of MiG-3 that were clearly painted with dark camo color, probably green, over the white winter finish.



This plane is better known for its white livery, still visible on the frame.


This image looks explicable with a partial repainting of the plane with green and black,  after a deluding attempt to clean away remains of white washable paint, still visible on the nose sides and in the square around the number.


What paint did they utilize for the numbers? Nitro or oil, the same paint could have been utilized to camouflage the whole plane in case of lack of Mk-7 .

Besides, I have seen somewhere photos of abandoned planes (LaGG-3s, I think) with white livery preserved in spite of the lack of snow on the ground. if the paint was so easily washable, the spring rains should have deleted it.

Massimo Smiley




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Graham Boak
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 11:52:30 PM »

I agree that the white finish was clearly not easily removable. I recall several photos of Normandie aircraft where dark stripes (black?) appear over a lighter colour partially covered in very streaky white .
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KL
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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2010, 11:34:28 PM »

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

Check Wikipedia for casein and casein paint - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casein_paint
Casein is a protein derived from milk, used as wood glue.  Casein paints (tempera) are known for thousands of years; they are water soluble and brittle.


MK-7 was basically a mix of casein and chalk.  It was usually applied with the brush.  It was washable/removable with warm water.

Surface covered with this paint was rough and it adversely affected flight performances.  Its use was discontinued in 1944 ? it wasn?t used in winter 1944/45

I agree with Mario:  it didn?t make sense to overpaint rough, uneven, water soluble and brittle MK-7 with aviation lacquers.

I don?t see any evidence of overpainted MK-7 on posted photos either.  On first two photos MK-7 is weathered or partially removed.  I can?t see any white winter paint on last two photos.
BTW, I can?t see any snow on last two photos? and it looks that there are some green leafs on trees in distance... Wink

Cheers,
KL   
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mholly
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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2010, 04:49:18 AM »

Gentlemen,
I re-read V/O writing about winter camo and was going to post but KL had "faster fingers" Smiley
Just to add that rough surface of MK-7 finish was "eating away" 10-25 km/h in a/c speed. So one would certainly want to get rid of this adverse effect once winter camo was not needed any more. Besides I maintain that standard nitro or oil paints would not stick to it well. What would be the point then? Were Russians really so sloppy and wasteful? I don't think so.
Speaking about first 2 pix I dare to go even further than KL and express my serious doubt we even see previous winter finish.
Quality of these pix is pretty poor so how can this "esoteric art of B&W pix analysis" convince me it's really white? Wink
Cann't I say that stars and inscription in the 3rd pic are yellow, gray or silver?
I know I'm exaggerating, we know it's red, but caution is in place. I'll give you another example. Well before Hornat's article about VVS colors came out in 1989 there was a debate in former Czechoslovakia what were the camo colors on La-5FN used by Czechoslovak pilots. One of KP (making 1/72 La-5FN kit) employees had B&W pix analyzed in criminal lab on photospectrometer (??) and was told it was brown and green! But we all know now (don't we?) that there were 2 grays, AMT-11 and 12.
Cheers,
Mario
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 04:51:06 AM by mholly » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2010, 09:07:41 AM »

Hi Konstantin, Mario and Graham, Smiley

Quote
MK-7 was basically a mix of casein and chalk.  It was usually applied with the brush.  It was washable/removable with warm water.
Warm water or time could have been scarce. Besides they could have utilized unwashable white paint if lacking of Mk-7. This is better that to let that Germans hit the planes on the ground. Besides I think that not too many planes painted in white survived the winter to be washed or repainted.
Quote
I agree with Mario:  it didn?t make sense to overpaint rough, uneven, water soluble and brittle MK-7 with aviation lacquers.
Numbers on winter planes were usually red or black, so they have to be overpainted over white. I don't remember to have seen chipping on numbers of winter planes.

Quote
I don?t see any evidence of overpainted MK-7 on posted photos either.  On first two photos MK-7 is weathered or partially removed.  I can?t see any white winter paint on last two photos
.

In my idea, I think to see brush strokes. Green dots made by brush on the first photo, horizontal or oblique brush strokes on the second one. Besides, the slogan 'za rodinu' visible on the second photo was avoided by the brush strokes. Clearly they were in a hurry.

This is another image of MiG-3 of the same unit. The black band on the wing is clearly overpainted over weathered white, it's not a shadow because the light direction is about horizontal, and there is no trace of continuation of this shadow.

Quote
BTW, I can?t see any snow on last two photos? and it looks that there are some green leafs on trees in distance...

Of course, else the planes should still be white.


This is a previus image of the MiG-3 with slogan (visible on the background). As you see, in the second image the canopy frames are still white.



About the LaGG, this is known to have been previously dotted with white paint.



This is the same plane some months after, after a partial deletion of red markings with black. The light parts on the nose, interpreted by other authors as sand, are probably remains of white paint, white other parts of the plane were freshly repainted.



Quote
Well before Hornat's article about VVS colors came out in 1989 there was a debate in former Czechoslovakia what were the camo colors on La-5FN used by Czechoslovak pilots. One of KP (making 1/72 La-5FN kit) employees had B&W pix analyzed in criminal lab on photospectrometer (??) and was told it was brown and green! But we all know now (don't we?) that there were 2 grays, AMT-11 and 12.

The information on the original hue and saturation of colors is definitively lost on bw photos, it is known. They can only be compatible or uncompatible with hypothyzed colors. It looks strange that kp employees did this...

Regards
Massimo Smiley




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John Thompson
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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2010, 06:36:22 PM »

Thanks, everyone, for a very interesting discussion. By the way, every time I see that last image of Mironov's "White 78", for a second or two I always think, "Wow - that "78" decal really silvered badly!"...

 Roll Eyes

John
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mholly
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2010, 09:06:00 PM »

Hi Massimo,
Quote
Besides they could have utilized unwashable white paint if lacking of Mk-7
There are NO non-washable paints documented for winter schemes. MK-7 was developed based on VIAM research from 1935-36 which had determined, that zinc or lead based white paints i.e. permanent, have very different spectrum of reflection in ultraviolet area than snow.
The only alternative to MK-7 was MK-7sh (based on gypsum) and MK-7f (chalk mixed with water, alcohol and formalin), ALL washable.
At factory level MK-7 was to be applied with spray gun in 2 light coats so as standard summer scheme was slightly showing through. Or 1-2 coats applied by brush.
It was well known to Russians that silver paint makes effective winter camo as well. I believe that when we see very uniform and solid "white" top coat it could have been actually aluminum primer AII. Remember "silver" Airacobras and Lagg-3? It was not unreasonable for factories to deliver a/c just like that in alu primer during winter months instead of applying standard camo+white distemper. Certainly would have saved time. A/c could be over-painted in standard applicable colors in the spring. This might explain the appearance of Yak-1 pic at the beginning of this thread (and others including some you posted).
Cheers,
Mario
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 10:19:12 AM »

Hi Mario, Smiley
Quote
There are NO non-washable paints documented for winter schemes. MK-7 was developed based on VIAM research from 1935-36 which had determined, that zinc or lead based white paints i.e. permanent, have very different spectrum of reflection in ultraviolet area than snow.
The only alternative to MK-7 was MK-7sh (based on gypsum) and MK-7f (chalk mixed with water, alcohol and formalin), ALL washable.
At factory level MK-7 was to be applied with spray gun in 2 light coats so as standard summer scheme was slightly showing through. Or 1-2 coats applied by brush.

I've already read the text of Orlov in its automatic translation posted on Arcforum, I know what colors were prescribed for winter schemes. But if official documents don't explain what one sees on photos, this could mean that someone on the field made in different way.

Quote
It was well known to Russians that silver paint makes effective winter camo as well. I believe that when we see very uniform and solid "white" top coat it could have been actually aluminum primer AII. Remember "silver" Airacobras and Lagg-3? It was not unreasonable for factories to deliver a/c just like that in alu primer during winter months instead of applying standard camo+white distemper. Certainly would have saved time. A/c could be over-painted in standard applicable colors in the spring. This might explain the appearance of Yak-1 pic at the beginning of this thread (and others including some you posted).

For what I know, if we exclude prewar planes as I-153s and SBs, , there are only four or five photos where the use of silver paint as winter camo was suspectable: the line of Airacobras, MiG-3 black 12 (at least its nose), Lagg-3 n-46 and a pair of Yaks. Take in account that the characteristic difference in photos between white and silver finish is that silver darkens along the profile of the plane; some lightning conditions, as the sun low to horizon, could make that the side of the plane is more lightened that its upper part, giving the impression of silver.
I don't think that it was common to leave planes as Yaks or Migs without paint, take in account that the color visible through the chipping of LaGGs and MiGs on Finnish museums on their wooden parts was yellow, not silver. Silver was for inside, eventually. Besides, if you leave uncamouflaged the metal parts, they would show yellow ALG-1 primer, not silver. So I think that the use of silver as winter camo is suspectable only on few cases, not as usual practice.

Massimo Smiley

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