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Author Topic: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?  (Read 48395 times)
Troy Smith
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« on: November 04, 2010, 03:52:04 AM »

I'm enquiring about the interior colours of these types.

From what I have read, the standard interior color is A-14, 'steel grey'

But there is also evidence for other colours, examples I can think of

La-5 in the USA, awaiting restoration, at the end of this page
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/cockpits/cockpitlagg3.html

LaGG-3
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=815.0

But the La-5F /La-7 switch to A-14?


Recent thread on hyperscale, which had parts of a Pe-2 cockpit seat frame in green from a  wreck in Estonia, mentioning that the Pe-2 in Norway had green insdie when recovered.
and here
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=194.0

mentioning a mix of internal colours.

thread here about Yak-9 walkround, http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=855.0

Pic of Mig-3 wrecks.

I know this is a broad spread, I'm researching  for the kits I have been getting, but perhaps a list or a pinned thread could be compiled from this for ease of reference for all.

best wishes
Troy





« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 04:58:35 AM by Troy Smith » Logged
marluc
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2010, 02:00:52 PM »

Hello Troy:

It?s a good idea to have a thread regarding this topic.
For I-16,the already mentioned A-14,grey AEh-9 and/or aluminium.
For Lagg-3,aluminium and/or A-14.
This is all I can rememember,greetings.

Martin
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learstang
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2010, 05:11:19 PM »

It's my understanding that the IL-2 interior was painted in A-14.

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2010, 08:27:03 AM »

I am always embarassed to the question of the internal colors of MiG-3.
I remember that a green seat was identified, the side panels found in Finland were light blue, probably the tube struts were green as the radio boxes, the instrument panel could be black or nearly white (perhaps the background color after removing a thin black plate), but some photos show internal details as dark, and an interviewed technician speaks of an overall black finish called Kuzbass lak, or of overall turquoise or of a skin color.
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2010, 11:58:57 PM »

I am always embarassed to the question of the internal colors ...

Hi Massimo,
an embarrassing question, but it pops-up every 3 months.

From what I have read?
La-5 in the USA, awaiting restoration?
Pe-2 ? wreck in Estonia
?Yak-9 walkround ?Mig-3 wrecks.

Troy you refer to very different sources; info from literature, wrecks, planes preserved in museums

The sources should be graded by their relevance and reliability:
?   Information from original documents (in Russian archives) and period technical literature:  Original documents are generally inaccessible - You have to live in Russia and have a lot of spare time to spend with dusty old paper!  Fortunately some info from original documents is available in secondary sources, i.e. in published texts by Russian authors.  A lot of period technical literature is available as scans on the internet!  
?   Wrecks:  sometimes, in extremely rare cases, paint may survive unaltered half a century in mud.  More often it has been changed, degraded or completely destroyed.  What is found on a wreck is applicable for that individual plane, not necessarily for all planes of that type or all planes made in Soviet Union during GPV!!!  Another problem with wrecks is that what researchers identify on wrecks is only their subjective interpretation.  How can Pilawskii be so confident that the Norwegian Pe-2 wrecks were painted in AII Green and not AMT-4 (both are green and both are nitro paints)?
?   Planes preserved in museums:  Usually the history of museum planes is not clear.  There are always periods when plane may have been repainted.
?   Memoirs, reminiscences: extremely subjective, hard or impossible to prove
?   Black and white photographs:  What plane, when, what paints, etc???

Rating in short:
1.   Information from original documents and period technical literature - Most reliable and relevant
2.   Wrecks - Limited reliability and relevance
3.   Planes preserved in museums - Questionable reliability and relevance
4.   Memoirs, reminiscences ? Highly Questionable
5.   Black and white photographs - Almost useless

If we rely on the Most reliable and relevant info, following would emerge:

A-14  was a designated interior paint, both for metal and wood.

A-14 (steel gray) was used as interior paint for duralumin planes.  It was applied both over ALG-1 or directly on duralumin
ALG-1 (colour not standardized: from yellow to orange-brown or yellow-green) was used as a protective coating/primer for duraluminium, both for exterior and interior surfaces
AE-9 (light gray) was used as interior paint for metal planes, applied over ALG-1 (identified on wrecks only!)
ALG-5 (colour not standardized: shades of gray-green) was used as a primer for mixed construction planes and Il-2 steel armor
AE-9 (light gray) was used after 1939 as a protective paint for I-16 wooden fuselage interior.  It was applied directly on wood, without any primers.
AII Al (silver) was used as an interior protective paint for wooden construction planes glued with casein glues.  It was applied over DD113 nitro primer
A-14 or A-14f (steel gray) was used for wooden construction planes glued with casein glues.  It was applied in 2 coats directly on wood, without any primers.
Chlor-vinyl primer DD118 (gray) was used at the end of war for wooden construction planes glued with casein glues. It was applied in 2 coats if painted with brush or in 3 coats if sprayed
Red VIAM-B (Resin lacquer No1) was used as interior paint on some LaGGs (ie wooden planes glued with formaldehyde glues)
A-28m (light blue) was A-14 alternative for field repairs and overhauling.
 
Hope this helps.

KL  
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 04:33:00 AM by KL » Logged
marluc
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2010, 03:12:18 PM »

It really helps Konstantin,thanks for sharing all this information.Greetings.

Martin
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learstang
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2010, 04:50:39 PM »

So Konstantin, was A-14 not the interior colour for the IL-2?  ALG-5 was?

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2010, 09:07:32 AM »

Quote
So Konstantin, was A-14 not the interior colour for the IL-2?  ALG-5 was?

Regards,

Jason
Hi Jason,
perhaps... but the primer is not necessarily the visible color of inside. It could have had a layer of grey on it.

Hi Konstantin, Smiley
these informations are a good base, but I fear that there are more exceptions than rules shown on the limited informations available. As on the color photos of Yaks on Arcforum, where legs are painted with different colors  each other, and the inside of doors looks silver.

Regards
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2010, 02:44:22 PM »

AE-9 (light gray) was used after 1939 as a protective paint for I-16 wooden fuselage interior. 
And before 1939,which colour was painted the interior of I-16?
Regards.

Martin
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learstang
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2010, 06:06:52 PM »

Quote
So Konstantin, was A-14 not the interior colour for the IL-2?  ALG-5 was?

Regards,

Jason
Hi Jason,
perhaps... but the primer is not necessarily the visible color of inside. It could have had a layer of grey on it.

Hi Konstantin, Smiley
these informations are a good base, but I fear that there are more exceptions than rules shown on the limited informations available. As on the color photos of Yaks on Arcforum, where legs are painted with different colors  each other, and the inside of doors looks silver.

Regards
Massimo
Thank you, Massimo!  I suppose I'll continue to use grey unless I obtain convincing evidence that it was not used on the IL-2.  I have seen a recovered piece of the floor that looks green, but as this example spent over 60 years in water, I hardly consider that convincing evidence.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2010, 09:00:06 PM »

So Konstantin, was A-14 not the interior colour for the IL-2?  ALG-5 was?

Jason, what I posted is what I found in literature so far.  I must stress that I haven?t found anything specifically related to Il-2 interior colours!!!  While manuals for Polikarpov, Lavochkin or Yakovlev planes are available, Il-2 manual is not.  In general, Il-2 is very poorly covered in available technical literature.

In my opinion, it wasn?t A-14 OR ALG-5.
More likely, all of the following were possible at one or the other time:
?   ALG-5 AND A-14
?   ALG-5 only
?   A-14 only
?   Bare metal

Check following link for Il-2 and Il-4 wrecks preserved in Kiev museum:
http://dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?p=416

Try to translate the text; it?s more informative than the photos.   Also try to filter out poster?s interpretation.  Keep in mind that ALG-1 and ALG-5 colours were not standardized, they varied.  IMHO following interior paints could be seen there:
?   Yellow, yellow-green and orange are ALG-1
?   Russian ?aotake? Wink (gray-green) is ALG-5
?   Dark green (photo) could be A-14 over ALG-5

Cheers,  Smiley
KL
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 10:15:30 PM by KL » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2010, 10:01:53 PM »

As always, thank you Konstantin for helping to make some sense out of a complex subject!

Regards,

Jason
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2010, 11:48:40 PM »

HI Konstantin

thank you very much for posting your responses. Thanks to everyone else who replied, but as Konstantin has given such informative answers I am going to ask if he can expand one some points.

specifically -
Quote
While manuals for Polikarpov, Lavochkin or Yakovlev planes are available,

can you summarise the information on interior colours if these are in the manuals? 

Quote
Check following link for Il-2 and Il-4 wrecks preserved in Kiev museum:
Keep in mind that ALG-1 and ALG-5 colours were not standardized, they varied.  IMHO following interior paints could be seen there:
?   Yellow, yellow-green and orange are ALG-1
?   Russian ?aotake? Wink (gray-green) is ALG-5
?   Dark green (photo) could be A-14 over ALG-5

any chance of captioning some of the photos?  I;'m not even sure which bits are Il4 and IL2!  presume
I have linked the pictures which hopefully will make this easier?

























the blue-green paint on the inside is of note, reminds me of the colour I have seen i Russian st war jet cockpits.  Any ideas of this?



is this the 'dark green' your refer to as being A-14 over ALG-5?



look forward to your comments and captions
T

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2010, 07:09:06 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for the link.
I've tried an automatic translation of the text, but it's poor.

Quote
In which once this theme rises, are caused disputes (now and then to [bana].) and it calms down, in this case the sides as a rule remain with their opinion. In my field of sight burn the fragments of the 3rd aircraft Il-2, biased in different period in Murmansk region, (into Kiev they are brought in 1985). All 3 aircraft of different series, beginning from the one-place machine of the first series to " classical Il-2 the issue of 43 years. So here, the most interesting into them- this painting [vnutryanki]. Unfortunately, paint inside on the armored housings was not preserved, [zasim] let us have a talk about all the remaining, in particular, niche chassis. But that already very much people of " in the rod of [lupit]" .)) The single-seater aircraft (however strangely, the first series chaos of evacuation and the scarcity of materials it should not have affected) is not inside completely painted, and not it was [gruntovan]! In this case, the paint on the external surfaces by places was preserved. No inside even tracks! Virgin dural! (It climbed around all corners and [skladochki], the suppressed parts the unbend- external paint exists, inside [chisto].[Snaruzhi] there was black- green camouflage. Further so-called Il-2[M], straight duralumin wing, wooden tail, rifle point is established " in [dovesok]" , (its aggregates they also bear not the least traces of paint), lamp is early type pointer, hinged part without " [kozyrka]" , straight line. Aircraft bore black- green camouflage, colors were preserved magnificently! Bottom even [blestit]! Aircraft is from within covered with ground of " zinc -[khrom]" , bomb bays along the sides are sewn by plywood, they are pasted by percale, they are painted with rods of high carbon and alloy. Hatchways, the cover of guns, skin flap- from the plywood. All internal surface-zinc- chromium. of different density, by places it is similar to Russian " [aotake]". The fragment of series number was preserved on the landing gear doors. There are no other traces of paint inside. Il-2[M]3. Wooden consoles, tail, the fairings about the rails of late type lamp. Aircraft is assembled entire on the rivets of " [vpotay]" , in contrast to the first two silts. It is painted with average- green paint, 2 layers, (it was repair?) It is the upper -considerably brighter than the original. Thus, the here most interesting! Inside aircraft is also almost not colored, those parts, which are visible are afterward assembling- blown (by places brush coloring) by dark green color. By brush on the seams everything is smeared by orange paint. are so painted fragments Il-2 from the Finnish museum, the same period and close (on a world scale) region. Flaps, landing gear doors are painted in the blue, the color of lower surfaces. Niches themselves and bomb bay-dark- green. Silvery plywood in the bomb bays again mark time! Lie at the museum other fragments P -2 from " by tortoise, dB -3[f], so here are they inside entire zincchromium, pawn outside into the green with the black is blown, dB -3[f] green with the sandy- the brown. But much paint was strewn, the literally counted fish-scales remained on dB, only ground was visible [snachala].[tolko] on the photo it is possible paint to perceive, so that he not to [pokazatel].[Tam] all that want it could be. but pieces it is small, screw and region of fastening tailed counter. Counter and around it was above ground in the blue blown. Il-4 from The [poklonnaya] mountain inside (wings) zincchromium, in Finns also pieces such a zh of color. Here strictly, food for the brains, give to discuss! [Nadeyus], [Vy] you do not stint on about the spent traffic! With the respect, Aleksey.
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KL
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2010, 09:30:05 PM »

Hi Massimo, Troy, Jason,
translation first, comments and captions later:

Text by:  Aleksey Shtan aka Shaitan737
http://dishmodels.ru/wshowp.htm?p=416&id=8312

Colour of Interior (and other ..) Surfaces of IL-2, IL-4 and others

Whenever interior colours are discussed there are conflicts and at the end, when discussion quiets down, the sides usually remain with their original opinions...
    
Fragments of three Il-2 Shturmoviks are preserved at the ?GPW Museum? in Kiev, Ukraine.  Planes were shot down at different times in the Murmansk region and were brought to Kiev in 1985. Planes belong to different series, ranging from a single-seater of the first series to the "classical? 1943 Il-2. The most interesting aspect is their interior colour. Unfortunately, the paint on the inside of the armored fuselage (?bronekorpus?) hasn?t been preserved, so we will talk about other parts of the airframe, in particular the landing gear wells. And that is the area where many modelers are making mistakes.
  
Interior of the single-seat Il-2 is unpainted, not even primed!!!  Paint of the exterior surfaces is preserved in some places. But, no traces of paint inside! Virgin duralumin! Everything clean! Exterior was camouflaged in black and green. This is odd because first Il-2 series were not affected by the chaos of the evacuation and shortages of materials.

Next is the so-called IL-2M, straight duralumin wing, wooden tail, rear gunner?s cockpit as an "addition" (its parts also do not bear the slightest traces of paint), gunner?s canopy of the early-type, part that opens is straight without a windshield. The plane was carrying black and green camouflage and colors are preserved beautifully! Undersides are still shiny! Interior is primed with "zinc-chromate?, bomb bay sides are covered with the fabric lined plywood painted in silver. Access covers, gun bay covers and flaps skinning - all made of plywood. All internal surfaces are primed with zinc-chromate of different shades, in places it looks like Russian "aotake?. Serial number is preserved on the landing gear doors. No traces of other paints there.
 
Il-2M3 - Wooden wing consoles and rear fuselage, canopy rail fairings of the late type. All rivets of this aircraft are "flush", unlike the first two Il-2s.  Exterior is painted in two layers of mid-green paint (overhauled?).  Top layer is much lighter than the original paint. So, here is the fun part! Interior of the plane is again almost unpainted.  Those parts which were visible after assembly, were sprayed (sometimes painted with brush) in dark green.  All joints were brushed with orange paint.  Il-2 fragments from the Finnish museum, from the same period and region, were painted the same way. Inside of the flaps and landing gear doors were painted blue, the colour of the lower surfaces. Landing gear wells and bomb bays are dark green. Silver plywood of bomb bays is again at its place!
    
There are also Pe-2 (with "turtle? rear gunner canopy) and DB-3F fragments in the museum.  Interior of both is all zinc-chromate.  Exterior of Pe-2 is sprayed in green and black, DB-3F is sprayed in green and sandy brown. On DB-3, literally a few flakes of paint are preserved.  At first only the primer is visible.  The paint can be seen Only on the photo, but it is not indicative.  There could be anything you want.  Only a few fragments are preserved - the airscrew and part around the tail wheel strut attachment.  The strut and area around it was sprayed with gray-blue over the primer.  Wings interior of the Poklonnaya Gora Il-4 is also zinc-chromate, the Finns also have fragments of the same colour.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 09:42:06 PM by KL » Logged
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