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Author Topic: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?  (Read 51513 times)
bonifaz
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« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2010, 02:40:23 AM »


RLM 02 is the only German colour I read about and that was only because Legion Condor Me-109s were supposedly painted in that colour.  For decades people believed that those planes were light gray.  Some 10 years ago it was discovered that RLM 02 was gray-green and profiles of gray-green SCW Me-109s became quite fashionable.  It is now generally accepted that those planes were light gray and that they were actually painted in some other paint.
In short, nobody knows how green was RLM 02.  So much about the pedantic Germans and their precise standards Cheesy.

Cheers,
KL

Sorry KL, but it isn`t right! Legion Condor Bf 109 were painted in RLM 63, not in 02! Mr. Merrick knows, how green was RLM 02  Wink You can use google for information about Mr J?rgen Kiroff. Wink And yes, we Germans are pedantic ( not all) Grin And we have precise standards and live for that Undecided
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marluc
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Posts: 418



« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2010, 02:13:55 PM »

A question for Konstantin:

AE-9 (light gray) was used after 1939 as a protective paint for I-16 wooden fuselage interior. 
And before 1939,such as the I-16 in the Spanish Civil War,which colour was painted the interior of these?
Regards.

Martin
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KL
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2010, 09:47:41 PM »

And before 1939,such as the I-16 in the Spanish Civil War,which colour was painted the interior of these?

GRAY !!!

Hi Martin,  Smiley
According to Maslov and his new I-16 book, the interior was gray before 1939 and after 1939 it was painted in AE-9 applied over the yellow ALG-2 primer.

IMHO, the gray A-14 would be almost certain for 1937 and 1938.  1936 I-16s (those with black cowlings) may have been painted differently.

I haven?t seen any references of light blue interiors in prewar and WWII Soviet planes!

With all the respect for Juan Millan, his evidences for light blue interiors are weak.  Memories of the SCW veterans are important, but they are incomplete ? were those planes and their interiors repainted in Spain?  Who knows what happened to original A-14 when it was baked under the Spanish sun?  Were those Republican pilots or Nationalist pilots (who may have remembered post SCW planes)?
Especially Juan?s ?confirmed by Pilawskii? as an evidence!!!  Pilawskii is 'not so reliable':  IMUP, MUP and ?Wood Aehroluck? are his fantasies!  Nothing that Pilawskii wrote about interior colours is true.


Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 07:14:16 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2010, 07:24:30 AM »

Hi Konstantin, Smiley
as a moderator, I've made a slight modify about your statements on EP. One can think such things, but write this on a forum is not good.
About light blue, the use of this color is reported by Kari Lumppio (if I don't miss), as utilized on the inner face of the side plates (visible through the cockpit) of the MiG-3 preserved in Finnish museum or in Veesiveehma depot.  I am not fully sure that it is the same color of undersurfaces, but I suppose so.
Regards
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2010, 10:05:32 PM »

IMHO, the gray A-14 would be almost certain for 1937 and 1938.  

Thanks Konstantin for you answer,it?s very appreciated.Greetings.

Martin
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KL
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« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2010, 01:58:08 AM »

Hi Massimo,   Smiley
I agree with your modification.  Good you made it?

What are we going to do with IMUP, MUP and ?wood aerolack??  Those paints can?t be found in period literature or in Vahlamov?s & Orlov?s research.
IMHO, most of what Pilawskii writes about the interior colours in his book is fiction;  Acording to Pilawskii, a factory or even an individual painter could decide weather to paint interior or not.  Again, such a practice can?t be conformed in available sources.  To me the entire concept is na?ve.

Hope this will also help.  Roll Eyes

Cheers,
KL
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learstang
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« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2010, 06:23:25 AM »

Konstantin, speaking of V&O's work, do you know if anyone is working on an English translation of the articles they did for M-Hobby in 1999?  That might settle a lot of colour questions for us English(only)-speakers.

Regards,

Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2010, 10:34:41 AM »

Hi Konstantin, Smiley

about the question of painting interiors, I think that there was some variability, but I don't know if it depends on the factory, the period, field repaintings or what else.
Looking at photos of La-7s on any monograph, one can see that some had their legs painted with the same dark color of the inner face of doors, while other ones were much lighter.
The report that you have posted of the paints found inside shturmoviks and other planes shows a confusing variety too.
The color photo of Yak-3 n.1 posted on Arcforum seem to show silver doors, green wheel disks, light grey or silver right leg, dark grey and black left leg. I don't think that this is the rule for Yak-3s, but thinking that them all were A-14 is clearly unconfirmed.

Quote
speaking of V&O's work, do you know if anyone is working on an English translation of the articles they did for M-Hobby in 1999?  That might settle a lot of colour questions for us English(only)-speakers.
Hi Jason,

Mario was working on, but I fear that it's stopped. The easiest thing looks to improve the automatic translation made on Arcforum. I read it without major difficulties, it is very close to the book of Hornat.

Regards
Massimo
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John Thompson
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« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2010, 03:12:28 PM »

Hi Massimo! Do you have a link for the Arcforum page that has the V&O translation URL? I still have the message you sent me (thank you again!) which has the decompressed (non-.rar)files attached to it, so I could forward that to anyone who wants it.

Hi Konstantin - in your reply regarding the I-16 cockpit colour, you mentioned a new book by Mikhail Maslov on the I-16. Can you please provide more information on this? Thank you!

John

Edit:

Hi Jason,

Mario was working on, but I fear that it's stopped. The easiest thing looks to improve the automatic translation made on Arcforum. I read it without major difficulties, it is very close to the book of Hornat.

Regards
Massimo

The book Colors of the Falcons, by Jiri Hornat and Bob Migliardi, is being reprinted:
http://www.iliad-design.com/falconsbook.html

I saw one copy in stock at Aviation World in Toronto yesterday.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 06:42:27 PM by John Thompson » Logged
KL
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« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2010, 07:28:25 PM »

about the question of painting interiors, I think that there was some variability, but I don't know if it depends on the factory, the period, field repaintings or what else.
The report that you have posted of the paints found inside shturmoviks and other planes shows a confusing variety too.

Hi Massimo,  Smiley
Of course that there was some variability!  We are talking about 10 turbulent years, about different planes, about different construction techniques (wooden planes, metal planes, mixed construction planes), about possible field repairs.
For modelers cockpit interior, wheel wells, bomb bays, inside of the flaps are all just ?plane cavities?.  In reality those are very different parts of the plane ? why would plane producer ( Grin Zavod, pl Zavoda Grin) paint them all in same colour?

Statements like ?Russians painted plane interiors in RLM-02? or ?all plane cavities were light blue? are uninformed.

Why ?confusing variety??  The list of major interior paints is complete (maybe few additions for details, like cast iron paint), we know how those paints look like and we are starting to understand where each paint was used.
 
The color photo of Yak-3 n.1 posted on Arcforum seem to show silver doors, green wheel disks, light grey or silver right leg, dark grey and black left leg. I don't think that this is the rule for Yak-3s, but thinking that them all were A-14 is clearly unconfirmed.

Yak-3 legs are not painted in different colours.  It?s all about lighting: one leg is better lit and the other is in shade; one leg is overexposed and the other is underexposed.   



1944-45 Soviet war industry worked like a well oiled machine.  I would expect that all Yak-3s left factories quite uniformly painted and camouflaged.

Hi Konstantin - in your reply regarding the I-16 cockpit colour, you mentioned a new book by Mikhail Maslov on the I-16. Can you please provide more information on this? Thank you!

The last, 2008, Maslov?s I-16 book:

http://modelfan.ru/5365-istrebitel-i-16-norovistyj-ishak-stalinskix-sokolov-maslov-ma.html


Cheers,
KL

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2010, 10:09:38 PM »

Quote
Yak-3 legs are not painted in different colours.  It?s all about lighting: one leg is better lit and the other is in shade; one leg is overexposed and the other is underexposed.  


Hi Konstantin, Smiley
as you can see on the photo, the leg projects its shadow on the ground; so it is not on shadow, but in full sunlight.
The reflection on the wing is because it is gloss, it's a different matter.

Here is another one:




This shows clearly that the small door was silver inside, else it should be darker than the light blue face under the same (or less) light.


regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 07:22:05 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2010, 10:09:19 PM »

Option No. 2:



Francois Bukhanoff had had it enouhg for the day!  It was too hot for painting on that summer day in July 1945.


Even if two landing gear legs are different on the photo, that can't be used as a proof that Soviets painted planes with anything that they had handy.  Photographic evidence has very limited value.  Photo of that same Yak-3 would look different if taken half an hour later in different lighting conditions (or next morning when Francois finished painting).

Cheers,
KL
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marluc
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« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2010, 10:31:46 PM »

In my humble opinion,it?s not a matter of light or exposure,ALL the right side of the photo is darker than the left.greetings.

Martin
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John Thompson
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« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2010, 11:55:34 PM »

In my humble opinion,it?s not a matter of light or exposure,ALL the right side of the photo is darker than the left.greetings.

Martin

Hi Martin! But isn't that a defect in the photo itself, or this print of the photo? Everything looks unnaturally dark, including the grass itself.

(Hmmm - Francois Bukhanoff, eh? Obviously a cousin of Nadiya Ivanova at Zavod 292... Wink )

Salut!
John
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2010, 03:32:36 PM »

Hi Konstantin, Smiley
Quote
Francois Bukhanoff had had it enouhg for the day!  It was too hot for painting on that summer day in July 1945.
Funny! But why are you so sure that he repainted a leg only? Maybe he has repainted only that very dark and gloss blue...

Quote
In my humble opinion,it?s not a matter of light or exposure, ALL the right side of the photo is darker than the left.greetings.
Hi Martin, Smiley
I agree that all the photo is somewhat darker on the right, but not so darker. The different contrast between legs and tyres is obvious.

Quote
(Hmmm - Francois Bukhanoff, eh? Obviously a cousin of Nadiya Ivanova at Zavod 292...  )
Hi John,  Smiley
there is a way to say: a rule is confirmed by exceptions. Well, I think that now we have found exceptions enough to confirm a rule.

Massimo
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