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Author Topic: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?  (Read 48482 times)
learstang
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« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2010, 05:50:07 PM »


Jason might be able to say when was this plane made?  Straight metal wings + wooden rear fuselage + "last minute" rear gunner cockpit.

Regardx,
KL



Probably late 1942, although I'm puzzled about the "last minute" rear gunner cockpit comment.  I presume that this doesn't refer to the field mods as these of course weren't done at the factory, and simply consisted of a hole cut just aft of the pilot's cockpit.  Maybe Mr. Shtan is referring to a single-seater that was modified on the line to be a production two-seater?  In that case it would have been one of the earliest two-seaters and would almost certainly be from late 1942.


Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2010, 06:36:50 PM »

Hi Massimo and Jason,  Smiley

Quote
For what I know, anodized duraluminium is dull gray.
Perhaps not. In this table, it is described as yellowish-greenish

True, anodized aluminium surface is dyed and sealed.  Dye could be any colour - pots and construction aluminium are usually gray, but other colours are possible.




But, in this particular case ("late 1942" Il-2), we can see paint coating - we can see how it's peeling, or how it's fading.  Anodized layer is different, it's tickness is measured in micrometers.
 
Maybe Mr. Shtan is referring to a single-seater that was modified on the line to be a production two-seater?  In that case it would have been one of the earliest two-seaters and would almost certainly be from late 1942.


that's exactly how Mr. Shtan describes the wreck:  a single-seater modified while on the production line (in factory) into a two-seater.

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 06:45:44 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2010, 10:45:17 PM »

Kiev Il-2 wreck No 3:




1943/44 Il-2 is the wreck laying on its belly in the centre of both photos.  Outer wing panels belong to the ?late 1942? Il-2 wreck!


This is a standard 1943/44 two-seater with wooden wings and wooden rear fuselage. 

From Mr. Shtan?s description and what is visible on photos following would be the factory painting procedure:

?   Unpainted armored ?bronecorpus? and wing ?centroplan? were first assembled
?   Assembled plane was primed in ?DARK GREEN?
?   Bomb bays and landing gear wells were painted in steel gray A-14
?   Exterior was camouflaged in standard 3-colour scheme (AMT-1/AMT-4/AMT-12)

Later, the plane was repaired in the field:
?   interior sheet metal joints were brushed in ?ORANGE?
?   Back of the wing toward the landing flaps was sprayed in A-28m (field replacement for A-14)


?Albom nakrasok? helps to identify ?Dark Green? and ?Orange?


ALG-1 is top, ALG-5 bottom; the red primer between is described as gliftalevaya No.138 (Thanks to E. Pilawskii)

?Dark Green? is ALG-5 and ?Orange? is ALG-1.

Orange colour of ALG-1 isn?t a big surprise.  According to http://www.colorserver.net/history/history-zinc-chromate.htm
? any pigment might be added to the raw paint mixture to go with the Zinc Chromate, thereby modifying the color. Some of today's mixtures use iron oxide -- giving that rusty red appearance you can often see on prefabricated steel beams in highway and building construction.

The colours of this wreck could be interpreted as follows:


Wheel well ? primed in ALG-5, then painted in A-14.  Orange-brown ALG-1 brushed along corners in the field.



Wing bomb bays ? same as wheel wells. Interesting are preserved plywood sides painted in silver AII Aluminum nitro paint.



Back of the wing toward the landing flaps ? visible are olive green AMT-4, possibly dark gray AMT-12 and field applied A-28m.

Hope this will help,
KL



   
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John Thompson
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« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2010, 12:56:43 AM »

Very interesting - thank you, Konstantin! Could the lack of standard finishes be due to the desperate attempt by the managers of Zavod 18 to build Shturmoviks quickly enough to avoid execution, per Stalin's "bread and air" telegram? The quickest reference I could pull up through Google provided this video of Il-2 tactics; the text below comes from the description of the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu4H6v_rdTk&feature=related

"In the late autumn 1941года Stalin has sent the well-known telegramme in the city of Kuibyshev. In this telegramme Stalin wrote "Attack planes are necessary as bread, as air. Do not exasperate the government. I warn last time" to the Factory manager №18 threatened execution. Workers of a factory promised to the leader to let out in the end of December 3 planes in day, since January, 5th 4 planes, since January, 19th six, since January, 27th on seven planes daily.
The factory had no habitation for workers, a heat supply, compressed air, oxygen. In the street there were awful frosts. But workers have carried out of the fantastic obligation. They have increased release of attack planes in 7 times for one month."

Somewhat off-topic, but interesting, I hope! There are also numerous other VVS aircraft videos posted on YouTube.

Regarding the practice of tinting zinc chromate primers, this was sometimes done in cases where a second coat was specified, so that there could be a visual check, because of the different colour, to make certain that the second coat provided complete coverage.

John
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learstang
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« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2010, 01:12:03 AM »

Thank you again for the pictures and explanations, Konstantin!  Keep them coming.  John, interesting video I hadn't seen before - I'll have to look at some of the others on that page.  Thank you for the link!

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2010, 01:50:21 AM »

Could the lack of standard finishes be due to the desperate attempt by the managers of Zavod 18 to build Shturmoviks quickly enough to avoid execution, per Stalin's "bread and air" telegram?

Relocation of the industry and Stalin's treats may explain why "1941 single-seater's" interior is unfinished.  Other two Shturmoviks are both within the standards - "late 1942 two-seater" is primed/protected in pre-war fashion, while "1943/44 two-seater" makes use of ALG-5 mix.

Regarding the practice of tinting zinc chromate primers, this was sometimes done in cases where a second coat was specified, so that there could be a visual check, because of the different colour, to make certain that the second coat provided complete coverage.

In western countries, zinc chromate was comonly tinted with black pigment, so that the resulting paint was green (interior green).  In Soviet Union, green zinc-chromate was probably in use for short time before the war. During the war it was either ALG-1 + Aluminum powder (apple green) or ALG-1 tinted with Fe oxides.  Yellow zinc chromate was in use after the war again.
Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2010, 08:40:47 AM »

Hi Konstantin, Smiley
very interesting work, thank you very much for posting this.

In some images, as the flap on the lower right corner of the first photo, we can see structures where the greenish color is preserved on the back plate, but is lost on the smaller struts. Who knows why? Just as on the landing gear door, and on the third photo, of the wheel well.
Here are traces of A-14; is there some sign that all the green was repainted grey? Or that the flaps inside was light blue?
Regards
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2010, 02:14:04 PM »

Thanks Konstantin for these very interesting pictures.The orange ALG-1 came as a total surprise to me,so,to make it clear,the colour of ALG-1 without mixing with pigments,was it yellow?.Greetings.

Martin
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KL
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« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2010, 09:29:29 PM »

...to make it clear,the colour of ALG-1 without mixing with pigments,was it yellow?

Yes, colour of pure zinc chromate is yellow.  Zinc chromate was used as yellow pigment.

From Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_chromate
Its use as a corrosion resistant agent was applied to aluminium alloy parts first in commercial aircraft, and then in military ones. During the 1940 and 1950s it was typically found as the "paint" in the wheel wells of retractable landing gear on U.S. military aircraft, not because of its glaring yellow-green color symbolizing anything, but to protect the aluminium from corrosion.

When used as a pigment, it is known as Zinc Yellow or Yellow 36. It is highly toxic and rarely used in art anymore.


Molekular formula   ZnCr O4
Appearance   yellow-green crystals




From wisegeek:  http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-zinc-chromate.htm

While the chemical composition of zinc chromate is important, there are no standards for color. The natural color of the compound is greenish-yellow, but a variety of pigments are added during the manufacturing process to give it the color required by customers. One of the most common colors is rusty red, used on automobiles. The aerospace industry commonly uses yellows and greens.
Since zinc chromate is sensitive to light, it is mixed with black pigment to provide some UV resistance. The result is a green color. During the 1930s and 1940s, the primer was colored to indicate a second coat. Untinted or yellow primer indicated a single coat, while a tinted primer would be one of the other colors.


Cheers,
KL
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marluc
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« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2010, 11:44:54 PM »

Yes, colour of pure zinc chromate is yellow.  Zinc chromate was used as yellow pigment.
Thanks Konstantin for your excellent answer.Greetings.

Martin
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KL
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« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2010, 08:00:24 PM »

Hi, Smiley

has anybody noticed this photo?



It's not taken from Mr. Shtan's post at dishmodels.com!  
Does it look familiar?  Can you remember on what website did this photo appear before?  Huh

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 08:05:08 PM by KL » Logged
nsmekanik
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« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2010, 08:52:57 AM »

Sorry I can't help you with that, but thanks for for everything so far Konstantin  Grin , although I now find out that my cockpit is all wrong  Cry


eventually I'll get this one finished......
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learstang
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« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2010, 05:40:56 PM »

Nice work so far!  I wouldn't worry too much about the cockpit - even if you could change it, someone would come up with evidence that this particular Il-2 had a different-coloured cockpit to whatever you changed it to.  I just paint them in a medium grey (Model Master Light Ghost Gray), to represent A-14 Steel Grey, since that seems to have been a widely used primer.  I know it's not correct for every Il-2, but since I can't go back in time and check the real Shturmovik examples of the models I build, it'll have to do.

Regards,

Jason
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marluc
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« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2010, 10:21:58 PM »

Good work in the cockpit interior nsmekanik,it would be great to see a WIP in the "General Modeling" section.Greetings.

Martin
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KL
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« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2010, 11:23:03 PM »

Sorry I can't help you with that, but thanks for for everything so far Konstantin  Grin , although I now find out that my cockpit is all wrong  Cry


nsmekanik,  Smiley
I agree with you, that cockpit looks completely and totally wrong.  Light green-blue is one of the colours made up by Pilawskii (IMUP, MUP or PUP).  It's as likely to be found in Il-2 as the pink colour.

I wouldn't worry too much about the cockpit - even if you could change it, someone would come up with evidence that this particular Il-2 had a different-coloured cockpit to whatever you changed it to.

Hi Jason,  Smiley
could you list those different colours used for Il-2 cockpits that people have evidences for.

I just paint them in a medium grey (Model Master Light Ghost Gray), to represent A-14 Steel Grey, since that seems to have been a widely used primer.

A-14 was a finishing oil paint, not a primer!  ...Another Pilawskii's influence...

"any colour was possible" is an outdated (Pilawskii's Roll Eyes)concept.  There were standards, etc.

Speaking of Il-2 cockpit colours, I would start with the table I posted before; next I would eliminate everything before 1941 and after 1945. I would eliminate paints for wood and focus on paints for steel.
Basically everything except ALG-5 and A-14 would be eliminated - I can't see any reasons to use other colours then gray and dark gray-green.

Cheers,
KL  
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 11:35:49 PM by KL » Logged
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