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Author Topic: new page on colors of Soviet planes pre-1937  (Read 26852 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2011, 06:48:14 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
and why not M-103???  Silver SB is 1939 M-103 plane.
Because of the turret.  How do you distinguish between them?
Quote
There are German photos of SBs with two-blade propellors, try to look harder.  John or Jason may help??? 

It would be good. It's a pair of weeks that I am passing all my free time looking into the huge directories of my hard disks.
Quote
No, 1940 directive was very specific about markings.  There was a variety of Red Stars before this directive:  red stars without outlines on I-16s, red stars with inscribed black circles on I-153s, etc.  Between June 1940 and July 1941, there was only Red Star with black outline.
Hmm... it would be interesting to find an I-153 with 1940 scheme and stars without the circle.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2011, 08:21:06 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I have more suggestions for 1940-41 page:

1. You should explain May 1940 directive ? green upper surfaces/light blue lower surfaces and Red star with black outline in 6 positions.  Directive dealt only with new combat planes made after June 1940!

Planes made before June 1940 and repainted in solid green don?t belong to this page!!!
Planes camouflaged in units, in the field, are totally different subject.  There were ?veterans? from Halkin-Gol and Winter War, planes camouflaged in spring 1941 (before German attack) and planes that were hastily camouflaged in summer 1941 that didn?t comply with any official scheme.

2. Provide clear examples for May 1940 scheme.  

Your I-16 colour photo is probably OK.  Other photos from the same unit clearly shows red star outlined in black:





With Type 24, you are never sure when the plane was made: before or after June 1940.  The safest I-16 for May 1940 scheme is Type 29



Third I-16 photo (Type 5 planes) is not representative for May 1940 scheme!  Remove it... Huh

Your SB colour photo is not representative.  The plane is made before June 1940 and it was repainted in the field.  I would remove it from this page.
More representative photos would be "SB dive bomber? made in Zavod 22 in autumn 1940 (planes with convex cockpit canopy, MV-3 and MV-2 turrets/mounts, windscreen mounted antenna mast)






Your photo of Irkutsk SB (camouflaged SB with frontal radiator and MV-3 turret, windscreen mounted antenna mast) is a good example for May 1940 scheme.  This plane was made after August 07 1940.



You may also add Yer-2 and Pe-8 examples to your page.

Remove R-10 if its production stopped before June 1940.

I know that you will have to put much more work into this page, but it should clearly show what was May 1940 scheme.
Hope this helps.  Cheesy

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 08:51:36 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2011, 09:22:18 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for your suggestions and photos. It's certainly better to make a separate page for the old repainted planes, as I have to do for 1941-43 planes, because the one I am working on now has become too wide and full of photos. But often it's difficult to distinguish repainted planes from new ones, as for Po-2
after 1941.
Some good photos of Er-2, Pe-8 with the right livery would fasten my work, as photos of I-153s built in late 1940 (without circle of course!). By the way, now I'm working on 1941/43 page too.
About the schemes, I'll have to trace some... wait for a while, please.
Regards
Massimo Smiley
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KL
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« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2011, 06:58:26 PM »

Pe-8




I couldn?t find pre-war Yer-2 photo.  71 Yer-2 bombers were ordered at the beginning of 1941. 42 machines were accepted by VVS by the end of June 1941.  70th bomber was completed in Sept 1941.
Yer-2  M-105 in pre-war recognition booklet



421 DBAP, summer or more likely fall 1941.  The plane could have been camouflaged in Green-Black scheme.



Useful page, but not much about earliest Yer-2 M-105
http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft21770.htm

Pashinin I-21



Yatsenko I-28 (there are better photos, can?t find them)


« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 09:42:25 PM by KL » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2011, 07:55:32 PM »

Nice finds, Konstantin!  I've always liked the Yer-2.  Although I've read that the Amodel kit is somewhat difficult to build, I may just have to get it, although I'd love to have the earlier version with the asymmetrical canopy.  I also like the Pashinin I-21; with the aft-positioned canopy it looks like a racer, although I don't imagine the pilot had a very good view on takeoff and landing.  I already have the Zvezda kit of the Pe-8 (TB-7) - very nice kit (and BIG).

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2011, 09:46:31 PM »

I-153 is tougher than I thought?.

By the end of production in 1941, a total of 3,437 I-153s were built.
In the second half of 1940 and in January 1941, between 150 and 200 planes were made every month.  In last 6 months of production about 1000 planes were made.  In theory, 30% or every third I-153 should be painted in green-blue scheme according to the May 1940 directive.

Factory green-blue I-153s are not rare, they are hard to confirm?.

IMHO, all of the following are representative for May 1940 scheme:

















Hope this will help,

Cheers,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2011, 11:34:43 PM »

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

In my I-153 folder I have 180 pictures.  about 50 are "Green-Blue"!  among them




Both planes are "Green-Blue" - cowling of the left plane is obvious.  Note the underside of the upper wing root on the right plane - it's green.

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2011, 11:41:18 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
this is good enough, even if it remains the doubt on some stars, thanks to souvenir hunters.
Yes, the wingrot is green also on bw photos. Thank you for your efforts.
Best regards
Massimo Smiley
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KL
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« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2011, 02:21:39 AM »

Hi Massimo,
I did notice few examples of "green-blue" scheme combined with the "star with black circle".
It looks that black circle did persist, but hey, it was Zavod 1! Didn't they have their own "FACTORY GREEN" widely used on pre-war Mig-3s???

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2011, 08:11:30 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
this is interesting, but i's difficult to distinguish repainted planes from those that were factory painted.
By the way, the plane of the photo with the evident red star shows not the upper wing roots. Couldn't it be another type as I-15bis?
Factory green is mentioned by Hornat, that doesn't mention AII green. I think that he misinterpreted AII green as factory green.
Hornat mentions also tractor green and tobacco, and southern camouflages. I don't know if he is right, but I know what was the source of some of our old friends.
However, there are indication of the use of some non-standard dark emerald green to repaint a TB-3 in an old post on AWF.
Regards
Massimo Smiley
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 08:16:24 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2011, 07:22:38 PM »

this is interesting, but i's difficult to distinguish repainted planes from those that were factory painted.

I am pretty sure that most (probably all) of those ?Green-Blue? I-153s, were factory painted in this scheme to comply with May 1940 directive!  Try to do some statistics:  count all solid ?green-blue? wrecks and you will get about 30% of all I-153 photos.  I got 28% and that corresponds to about 1000 planes produced in last 6 months of production (second half of 1940). 

By the way, the plane of the photo with the evident red star shows not the upper wing roots. Couldn't it be another type as I-15bis?

Yes, I had the same suspicions.  It could be an I-15bis.

I don?t know why and how long black circles persisted.  Too bad those souvenir hunters cut out almost every Red Star even before photographing the plane (Where are they now? That is the real ?Mein Doodle?).

Factory green is mentioned by Hornat, that doesn't mention AII green. I think that he misinterpreted AII green as factory green.

Factory green is Pilawskii?s fairytale!  He thought that early Mig-3s were lime green (his own version of AII Green) but most evidence showed something darker. So he invented a new colour. 

Hornat mentions also tractor green and tobacco, and southern camouflages. I don't know if he is right, but I know what was the source of some of our old friends.

what was the source?  Tell us!
Hornat & Migliardy are wrong when they write about tractors, tobacco and Southern Deserts.
I saw two Hornat?s texts from 1988-89:  except for 1943 NKAP schemes there isn?t much.  ?Colors of the Falcons? rely both on Vahlamov & Orlov (1999) and on Pilavskii (2003).   

However, there are indication of the use of some non-standard dark emerald green to repaint a TB-3 in an old post on AWF.

Monino TB-3 wreck was a civil plane pressed in VVS service in 1941.  Its colours are a special case, nothing to do with pre-war Mig-3.

Cheers,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2011, 09:47:03 PM »

Correction!!!  Shocked

Yatsenko?s I-28 belongs to 1937-40 period.  Prototype flew for the first time in summer 1939, second prototype appeared in fall 1939.
According to Maslov, prototype?s colours are described in flight testing reports as: ?Protective Green? upper surfaces and SILVER undersurfaces.
 


It?s interesting that I-28 series production did start in early 1940 at Zavod 292 in Saratov.  On May 25, 1940, I-28 production was cancelled in favor of I-26 (Yak-1).  Ten I-28 airframes were finished but engines were never installed on them.

An example for wrong underside colour:



As we have learned, between 1937 and 1940 there was no light blue undersides?  Wink


Another ?Green-Blue? prototype that complied with 1940 directive was Bisnovat SK-2.  Tested in winter 1940/41







Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 09:56:48 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2011, 11:08:27 PM »

Thank you Konstantin,
some prototypes could be good in the page.
I  wonder what is the color under the nose of Yatsenko, it should be AE-9 but its look is much darker than on I-16s.
By the way, have you good plotos of Yak-6 with green/black and 3 shades livery, please?
Regards
Massimo.
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KL
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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2011, 11:51:20 PM »

I  wonder what is the color under the nose of Yatsenko, it should be AE-9 but its look is much darker than on I-16s.

In 1939, metal cowling could have been painted both in gray AE-9 and silver AE-8

By the way, have you good plotos of Yak-6 with green/black and 3 shades livery, please?
Sorry, nothing on my HD.  Check:
http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft22410.htm
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/cww2/yak6.html
http://www.weltkrieg.ru/aircrafts/247-yak6.html
http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1226041331/0

or
http://www.google.ru/images?q=%D0%AF%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2+%D0%AF%D0%BA-6&hl=ru&newwindow=1&prmd=ivns&wrapid=tlif129919130051510&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1260&bih=835
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John Thompson
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« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2011, 02:05:28 AM »

Hi Massimo,
I did notice few examples of "green-blue" scheme combined with the "star with black circle".
It looks that black circle did persist, but hey, it was Zavod 1! Didn't they have their own "FACTORY GREEN" widely used on pre-war Mig-3s???

Cheers,
KL

Here's one that just showed up on ebay.de today:



John
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