new page on colors of Soviet planes pre-1937

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,

thank you for the link and the informations.

February 1936 ? report on tests of unpainted prototypes
October 1936 ? 30 unpainted planes sent to Spain
Beginning of 1937 ? Directive to paint all metal planes
1937 ? first series planes painted in light gray AE-9
September 1937 ? report that ?paint increases weight, etc?
End of 1938 ? report that ?in the past year silver AE-8 replaced gray AE-9?
November 1939 ? tests of SB 2M-103 No 13/221 (painted in 2 coats of gray AE-9 and polished)
May 1940 ? Directive to camouflage planes in green-blue scheme
July 1940 ?first series planes painted in green-blue scheme at Zavod 22
August 1940 ?first series planes painted in green-blue scheme at Zavod 125



Psy06 писал(а):

Чтож, придется согласиться, алюминевая заводская окраска все же была, но очень не долго, плюс некоторое небольшое число перекрасок в частях. В сухом остатке очень редкий тип окраса.



How I understand Maslov, silver SBs were in production end of 1938 and for some time in 1939 ? approx 6-12 months. Even 6 months makes some 800 or more planes painted in AE-8.
Similar number of planes (approx 800 for 6 months of production) were factory painted in green-blue.
Most of the remaining 5000 planes were painted gray AE-9.

The ratio between silver and gray planes was probably:

Silver : Gray = 1: 6

However, these planes are not so few: the planes built in about a year are a good part of some versions. However, one can see from the photos of the individual plane he is interested to.
Regards
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
I've made some corrections to the previous pages and I've added one on experimental camouflages of 1940.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/experimental1940/experimental1940.html
It would be good to translate the captions of the images.
Regards
Massimo

[learstang]

Nice new page, Massimo!  So is it that 3ng matte brown that's to blame for all those horrible profiles (and model instructions) of the IL-2 in dark brown/green topsides?  It's interesting how misinformation and misinterpretation can take on a life of its own and then be almost impossible to kill.  Konstantin would probably translate the captions if you asked (sorry for offering your services, Konstantin!).

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

Hi Massimo,  

SB colours development / chronology that you included in the new page is not definitive.  There are some facts, but there are also some interpretations - dubious or misleading.  I would delete the whole thing!  

Try to read the whole discussion - Conclusion was that silver SBs realy represent only a small fraction of close to 7000 planes made.
Silver AE-8 was used from December 1938 and less than a year later, in fall 1939, AE-9 was re-introduced on production lines.  Probably "only" between 500 and 1000 planes were factory painted in silver.  Statisticaly, only one in 10 SBs was silver.  

BTW, SBs on two photos on your new page are tipical "96 Series" machines with M-103 engines, made in 1939 (hence silver colour).  Those two SBs are not SB M-100 nor SB M-100A!!!
How do you distinguish SB M-100 from SB M-100A anyway??? 

Konstantin would probably translate the captions if you asked (sorry for offering your services, Konstantin!).

Hi Jason,  
I will translate them, if Massimo change "KHAKI" on pre 1937 page into something more appropriate.  

Cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
if you want, I'll delete those notes on which you are still in doubt. But if I delete all things on which there are doubts, any page would be full of omissions and scarcely useful.

I've updated those pages, I'll update soon again. I think to have cancelled the word khaki and replaced with olive green, is it remained somewhere?
About SB 2M-100 and 100A, I think that the A had three blade propellers and the early version two-blades propellers. Isn't it?

Another doubt is: it was suggested that army colors of AKAN are the same of the experimental camouflages; but on the text of Hornat I read that they were water-soluble paints. Were Army colors  water-soluble or oil paints?
Regards
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
I've uploaded another page:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1940-1941/1940-41.html
Please, let me know any suggestion on this.
Massimo

[learstang]

Another nice page, Massimo!  Of course I like the Shturmovik photos but the other photographs are interesting also.

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

if you want, I'll delete those notes on which you are still in doubt. But if I delete all things on which there are doubts, any page would be full of omissions and scarcely useful.

I still think it would be better to delete that particular chronology ? for example: there is no evidence that first 30 Spanish SBs were unpainted.  Mr. Maslov most likely guessed there.

I've updated those pages, I'll update soon again. I think to have cancelled the word khaki and replaced with olive green, is it remained somewhere?

From first sentence:  ??dark greenish khaki paint called Zashchitnyi??

IMHO, when you describe pre-1937 green colour you should use adjectiv dark.  So, ?dark yellowish green? or ?dark green with yellow hue? or maybe ?dark olive green? (if that means anything, olives are always olive green).  ?Olive green? should be reserved for 4BO and AMT-4.

About SB 2M-100 and 100A, I think that the A had three blade propellers and the early version two-blades propellers. Isn't it?

No!  If you don?t know plane?s factory No or time when it was made, you can?t tell what engine was behind that flat frontal radiator!
M-100A replaced M-100 in early 1937 and three-blade propeller started to appear much later in 1938.  

Another doubt is: it was suggested that army colors of AKAN are the same of the experimental camouflages; but on the text of Hornat I read that they were water-soluble paints. Were Army colors  water-soluble or oil paints?

Not 100% sure but, Akanihin?s set of Army paints represents colour etalons from 1939 Red Army camouflage tests.  Same colours were specified by NIIIT for VVS camouflage tests in August 1940.

Paints used in 1940 VVS tests were water soluble (Vahlamov & Orlov, 1999).

Army camouflage paints used during GPW were oil based and had different names.

Cheers,
KL

[KL]

Hi Massimo, 

Comments on new 1940-1941 page:

Comment 1.
?but many factories didn't conform immediately to this and continued to paint newly produced planes with previous silver/grey liveries for at least some months?

Is that so crucial?  ?Sounds like Pilawskii:  those were only recommendations.  Nadia Bukhanova preferred Aii Brown loops over tractor green (striking appliqu?)?. 

All the factories had to comply; Zavod 125 in Irkutsk (Far East!) started to finish their SBs in new camouflage scheme from the plane No 47/11 on August 07, 1940.   (You can?t ask for more details???)

Comment 2.
A-19f is described as ?light green? by Vahlamov and Orlov, and ?grass green? by Maslov.  A-19f was different shade than AII Z.  Series MiG-3s were not solid green even when new.  Maybe Soviet film didn?t record this feature as good as German film?

Comment 3.
MiG-3 stabilizer preserved in Vesivehmaa depot is repainted.  Original A-19f is visible where later olive green AMT-4 (or A-24m) is chipped.

4.
Poor, neglected, misunderstood SB (my favorite plane):  plane on the colour photo was made in first half of 1940 as light gray (polished AE-9).  Green upper surfaces are obviously over painted in field, even the brush strokes are visible.  This explains ?the unusually curved demarcation line on the fuselage sides?.

5.
SB with frontal radiator is not one of the ?Older types of SB?.  It was made in fall 1940 or early 1941 by Zavod 125 in Irkutsk.  As I said before, the frontal radiator is not indicative for different SB types.

6.
June 1940 - July 1941 planes could be distinguished from post ?July planes by their markings:
?   Red stars with thin black outline
?   Markings on upper wing surfaces
?   No markings on tail fin

Hope this helps!!!

Cheers, 
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Jason,
thank you.
By the way, have you a good photo of an Il-2 with metal fuselage and uniform green finish of early 1941, please? I'm not really sure that the photo that I've inserted is of a plane with metallic rear fuselage, and I would show the uniformity of green color on this type.
Regards
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,

IMHO, when you describe pre-1937 green colour you should use adjectiv dark.  So, ?dark yellowish green? or ?dark green with yellow hue? or maybe ?dark olive green? (if that means anything, olives are always olive green).  ?Olive green? should be reserved for 4BO and AMT-4.

to my eyes, all of these colors are dark; AMT-4, when new, should be nearly as dark as 34079. The images of  Chinese Tu-2 and the relative color comparison seem to confirm this. I have always seen 4BO represented as lighter than this, so I wonder if they are really similar.
Perhaps A-19F was lighter, but I suspect that it was dark when new.

No!  If you don?t know plane?s factory No or time when it was made, you can?t tell what engine was behind that flat frontal radiator!
M-100A replaced M-100 in early 1937 and three-blade propeller started to appear much later in 1938.  

Well, all photos that I've uploaded have three-blades propellers, so they have to be M-100A. I have not seen photos of two blades SB during Barbarossa, maybe they had already sent them all to Spain?

Comment 1.
?but many factories didn't conform immediately to this and continued to paint newly produced planes with previous silver/grey liveries for at least some months?

Is that so crucial?  ?Sounds like Pilawskii:  those were only recommendations.  Nadia Bukhanova preferred Aii Brown loops over tractor green (striking appliqu?)?. 

All the factories had to comply; Zavod 125 in Irkutsk (Far East!) started to finish their SBs in new camouflage scheme from the plane No 47/11 on August 07, 1940.   (You can?t ask for more details???)

I have the strong impression that some types were rarely or never painted with this standard. For example, I don't remember to have seen UT-1 or UT-2 painted in uniform green, only silver-grey or, later, camouflaged. At the same time, the SB-3F were rarely uniform green at the age of Barbarossa, , the production of one year of a recent plane should be much more represented in photos.




Regards
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
continuing...

A-19f is described as ?light green? by Vahlamov and Orlov, and ?grass green? by Maslov.  A-19f was different shade than AII Z.  Series MiG-3s were not solid green even when new.  Maybe Soviet film didn?t record this feature as good as German film?

Perhaps... but is it descrived in this way in documents of that age? Those authors live at our days, so they have seen that paint only in aged version.
In German photos, the difference of shade is more marked with the ageing of the plane (early production MiG-1s, planes abandoned...) while new-looking planes are more uniform.

MiG-3 stabilizer preserved in Vesivehmaa depot is repainted.  Original A-19f is visible where later olive green AMT-4 (or A-24m) is chipped.

I'm not convinced of this interpretation. I see some chips of more brownish green, but this would mean that A-19f was more brown than AMT-4. Besides the plane was lost on July 12, 1941, so it's difficult that AMT-4 had already arrived to units, and that matched so well the color of the frame of postion light on the wing. Photos of it on Red Stars show that the rudder was lighter than the stabilizer. Maybe they have painted both elevators and rudder with A-19f because of lacking of AII green? It seems to have not suffered for this.
Besides, the internal parts of the dismantled stabilizator  looks painted with the same color of exterior (as written by Lumppio too), and this let me think that this is the original color of the metal parts, painted before final assembling.

June 1940 - July 1941 planes could be distinguished from post ?July planes by their markings:
?   Red stars with thin black outline
?   Markings on upper wing surfaces
?   No markings on tail fin

yes, in this they were identical to the marks of all the prewar period.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Well, all photos that I've uploaded have three-blades propellers, so they have to be M-100A. I have not seen photos of two blades SB during Barbarossa, maybe they had already sent them all to Spain?

and why not M-103???  Silver SB is 1939 M-103 plane.
Last shipment sent to Spain in May 1938 were M-100A planes and they had two-blade propellors.
There are German photos of SBs with two-blade propellors, try to look harder.  John or Jason may help??? 

I have the strong impression that some types were rarely or never painted with this standard. For example, I don't remember to have seen UT-1 or UT-2 painted in uniform green, only silver-grey or, later, camouflaged. At the same time, the SB-3F were rarely uniform green at the age of Barbarossa, , the production of one year of a recent plane should be much more represented in photos.

May 1940 directive was applicable only to combat planes (made after June 1940), not to trainers.
There are many German photos of DB-3F (Il-4) in May 1940 scheme, you should look harder.  John or Jason may help???  

Quote
June 1940 - July 1941 planes could be distinguished from post ?July planes by their markings:
?   Red stars with thin black outline
?   Markings on upper wing surfaces
?   No markings on tail fin
yes, in this they were identical to the marks of all the prewar period.

No, 1940 directive was very specific about markings.  There was a variety of Red Stars before this directive:  red stars without outlines on I-16s, red stars with inscribed black circles on I-153s, etc.  Between June 1940 and July 1941, there was only Red Star with black outline.

Cheers,  
KL

[learstang]

Hi Jason,
thank you.
By the way, have you a good photo of an Il-2 with metal fuselage and uniform green finish of early 1941, please? I'm not really sure that the photo that I've inserted is of a plane with metallic rear fuselage, and I would show the uniformity of green color on this type.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, how about this one.  This appears to be a Barbarossa victim painted in overall green topsides (A-19f I presume, although it's not very glossy).  This is a very early Shturmovik as it has a landing light in the starboard wing, unarmoured sliding canopy, and the ShKAS machine guns outboard of the ShVAK's (although they've been removed).  If you look at the fin, it appears to be slightly wavy, as if composed of different (metal) panels.  If it were wooden it would appear more even.  The green colour to me looks fairly uniform over the entire aircraft.

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Very good image, Jason. I've included it in the next release of the page.
I've looked for good photos of Il-2 showing black/green camouflage. I've found some, I wonder if it's possible to recognize some recurrent pattern painted in factory.
Regards
Massimo