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Elabourately Painted IL-2
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Author Topic: Elabourately Painted IL-2  (Read 100577 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #105 on: November 30, 2014, 07:55:12 PM »

Hi Misos,
as already written, I disagree about the color of the wingroots. The image shows clearly it's gloss.

I don't think that the rail is painted red. It desturbs the stramlined effect that all the other lines try to create.
The darker look of the rail could be due to some grease for the canopy rails, cleaned with a cloth, that made the matt grey more glossy and dark.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #106 on: November 30, 2014, 09:41:06 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I also do not agree with all color combinations, but finally I wanted to colorize all "main" alternatives discussed lately.


IMHO there is reflection of the standing soldier on the upper wing, e.g. it is glossy. But there is a band of the different color on the upper wing between soldier and fuselage.


Yes, on this photo wing root but also wing leading edge look glossy. Note sharp dark horizontal reflection on it and on the both sides of nacelle going throught white-outlined stripes.

IMHO canopy railing is the same color as canopy framing. It is more elegant and clean design.

I am not sure about gloss white or metallic white on the upperwing. Even semi-gloss / polished AMT-7 (same color as fuselage) would be so bright from such low angle.

Regards,
    66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2014, 06:57:03 AM »

Hi Misos,
on the first photo, the leading edge appears surprisingly light if compared to the second one. I wonder if the painting had a temporal evolution and was made in more sessions.
Are there visible gun barrels or rocket rails in photos?
Regards
Massimo
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barneybolac
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« Reply #108 on: December 01, 2014, 11:17:23 AM »

In all the photos that can be seen with Nelson in them he has all the same medals in every photo with the aircraft in question. A few exceptions is when he has his harness on & it is obscuring them.

Can any one tell what they all are & is there any record of when they were received? I tend to think that all these photos are about the same time frame based off what he is wearing with his medals. I only know the HSU that can be seen in all of the photos with this aircraft.  It looks like there is 9 total that I can see it might help narrow down a time frame that maybe beneficial?
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66misos
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« Reply #109 on: December 01, 2014, 01:46:28 PM »

Hi Barney,
this pic shows his medals better:


On this photo the dark band (outlined by red lines here) on the wing root is missing on the left side:

It is either same glossy as wing upper surface, or it is retouched, or it is not there at all, or... Huh

Here blue line marks wing upper surface.
Red line marks the dark painted part of the wing leading edge, which looks quite thin here:


Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #110 on: December 01, 2014, 09:49:30 PM »

Quote
Награды
Герой Советского Союза (23.10.1942, 06.03.1945)

Награждён двумя орденами Ленина (9.06.1942, 23.10.1942), тремя орденами Красного Знамени (24.12.1941, 21.10.1942, 26.06.1944), медалями "За оборону Одессы" (1943), "За оборону Ленинграда" (1943).

Hero of Soviet Union (23.10.1942, 06.03.1945 (posthumously))

Awarded with two Orders of Lenin (9.06.1942, 23.10.1942), three Orders of Red Banner (24.12.1941, 21.10.1942, 26.06.1944), medals "For Defence of Odessa" (1943), "For Defence of Leningrad" (1943)

HSU golden star is on top, Orders of Lenin and Orders of the Red Banner below it, two medals (with ribbons) are bellow the orders.  I can't identify two awards to the left?

From awards I can identify, following photo was taken between 1943 (after Stepanyan received two medals) and June 1944 (before the third Order of Red Banner was awarded).



This photo (which may, or may not be taken at the same time when elaborately painted Il-2 was photographed) shows Stepanyan with the rank of a "major" (one larger star and epaulettes with two lines).  Stepanyan was a major at the time he was appointed to be a commander of 47 shap.  By summer 1944 he was promoted in the "podpolkovnik" rank and he was KIA as a podpolkovnik.  Following photo was taken after June 1944, Stepanyan has 3 orders of Red Banner and rank of a "podpolkovnik" (epaulettes with two stars each):



Photo below shows Stepanyan as a "kapitan" (epaulettes with four small stars) in 1943, before he received two medals:



It doesn't help much, the key could be the date when Stepanyan was promoted to the rank of a major.

KL

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KL
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« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2014, 11:23:14 PM »

On this photo the dark band (outlined by red lines here) on the wing root is missing on the left side:

It is either same glossy as wing upper surface, or it is retouched, or it is not there at all, or... Huh

Hi Misos,
photo was retouched, white trim line has been erased, but dark band is still there for those who want to see it:



As I have pointed out many times:  cockpit canopy, canopy railings, fuselage (and its rivets) and AMT-11 "wing root band" are best displayed on following two photos:



  
Absolutely no doubts that the railings are darker than canopy!!!  What are you guys talking about?  Greased?  Are you joking?  Do you see any grease on Stepanyans parachute?
Absolutely no doubts that the "wing root band" is matt and same colour as canopy.  At least under the cockpit canopy.

Border between "wing root band" and dark engine cowling is quite well defined - don't you see that border line?



Dark engine cowling and dark part of wing leading edge are actually connected!  It's all quite visible...  just try to see thing how they really are:



HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 11:29:55 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #112 on: December 02, 2014, 08:51:07 AM »

Hi,

Quote
Dark engine cowling and dark part of wing leading edge are actually connected!  It's all quite visible...  just try to see thing how they really are:

sorry, but you are confusing reflections for real color borders.
The dark part close to the engine is the reflection of the dark wing and the shadow under it. The light part is the reflection of the sky. The darker part close to the wing is the reflection of the nose.
The contours are more irregular of your reconstruction.

Quote
Absolutely no doubts that the railings are darker than canopy!!!  What are you guys talking about?  Greased?  Are you joking?  Do you see any grease on Stepanyans parachute?

Grease is not given in such quantity to dirten the dresses and parachutes, and eventual wastes are cleaned with a cloth. This can explain the darker and more glossy look of the rail.
I don't think it is red: putting into evidence the rail has not any aesthetical relation with the streamlined look that the painter was trying to make.

Regards
Massimo


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66misos
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« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2014, 04:33:23 PM »

Hi KL,
you are probably right about that darker (AMT-11) band:
Hi Misos,
photo was retouched, white trim line has been erased, but dark band is still there for those who want to see it:

...

I agree with Massimo about reflections on the leading edges and engine cowling:


Anyhow, here is another candidates for dark (cherry) red:

engine conling and fuselage star is darker than tail star. Also flag painted on the tail seems to be darker than tail star.

Preserved MiG-3 in Finnish Air Force Museum:



So yes, there are real examples of using dark red during war time. I do not know such photo of dark blue. So dark red engine cowling and wing leading edges seems to be more probable than dark blue. And in this case, if canopy railing should be different color from canopy framing, I would go with the same dark red.

So here are "dark red" alternatives:






I posted questions also at scalemodels.ru and airforce.ru forums yesterday morning, but untill now, almost after two days, no response Cry
Really mystery plane.
Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 06:25:46 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #114 on: December 02, 2014, 08:32:48 PM »

Hi Misos,
first, how wing leading edge and fuselage joint usually look and where are shadows and reflections:





Photos above clearly show where and how extensive is the wing root glare/reflection.  No need to complicate things with fuselage reflecting from wings, wings reflecting from fuselage etc.  Lines which I traced below are limits of dark colour:




On the photo below, you arbitrarily assign dark gray colour to a sheet metal panel, although it is clear where is wing root glare and what are the limits of dark colour...



Why don't you try version I suggested?  It is actually less complex then yours, dark colour is more continuous and probably more elegant...  Cheesy  Wink


You made some really interesting comments here:  



IMHO there is reflection of the standing soldier on the upper wing, e.g. it is glossy. But there is a band of the different color on the upper wing between soldier and fuselage.

IMHO, it's soldier's shadow, it doesn't prove that the surface is glossy.  Band you noticed is the dark cowling colour I traced...  check my last interpretation!

It is also interesting that wing top in both photos which show frontal view looks light - is that reflection from sky, or maybe the top of the wing leading edge was light blue?
Maybe only undersurfaces of the wing leading edge were dark?  Huh

Finally, I am not insisting on red for engine cowling.  IMHO, both red and dark blue are valid options:

-  Red was usually used as a "decorative" colour, it was associated with the Red Banner and the Red Star.  Also, we can't ignore the fact that on photos we are dealing with now, red stars look almost black.
-  Dark blue could be associated with the Navy(?).  Engine cowlings of some pre-war planes were dark blue.

Red, even on engine cowling should be a regular 1941-43 red.  No need for a mixed "cherry" red...  something like this would work:



For dark blue I would go with something like Monino ANT-25 engine cowling:



HTH,
KL  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 08:43:06 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #115 on: December 02, 2014, 09:35:19 PM »

Hi KL,
to be honest, I become confused Undecided

Here are color photos of pre-war dark blue:

and

Red looks quite similar, but the blue is apparently different. Which blue is closer to WWII era?



IMHO there is reflection of the standing soldier on the upper wing, e.g. it is glossy. But there is a band of the different color on the upper wing between soldier and fuselage.

IMHO, it's soldier's shadow, it doesn't prove that the surface is glossy.  Band you noticed is the dark cowling colour I traced...  check my last interpretation!

Non of soldiers on the ground has shadow in front of him (sun is behind photographer). Why should have it soldier on the wing? IMHO it is reflection. I agree with dark band.

It is also interesting that wing top in both photos which show frontal view looks light - is that reflection from sky, or maybe the top of the wing leading edge was light blue?
Maybe only undersurfaces of the wing leading edge were dark?  Huh
Here:

and here:

upper wing is not so bright. IMHO it is only bright reflection from low angle. It was my first idea that upperwings were same color as fuselage, e.g. light blue AMT-7.

Even here, from the same low angle, the upperwing is apparently brighter than fuselage and it is hard matt:


Finally, I am not insisting on red for engine cowling.  IMHO, both red and dark blue are valid options:
Red, even on engine cowling should be a regular 1941-43 red.  No need for a mixed "cherry" red...
Engine cowling is darker than fuselage star, which is red. So cowling should be either dark blue or dark red, not standard red as star. Plus white-outlined horizontal stripes on the wing leading edges are brighter than leaging edges. If leading edge is standard red, what is color of those stripes? Yellow?

Regards,
    66misos
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KL
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« Reply #116 on: December 02, 2014, 11:01:58 PM »

Hi Misos,
Those are two different blue colors (as Massimo suggested before).  Check the following photo which shows both planes at 1936Paris Air Show:



TsKB-19 has relatively light engine cowling.  ANT-25 has almost black cowling.  Stepanyan's Il-2 also had almost black cowling.

ANT-25 after 1937 record flight.  This is an original 1937 color photo:



I wouldn't look further for dark blue colour - it's like Monino ANT-25 cowling...

Regarding the red color:  IMHO, it's more about the film sensitivity.  Film from which Stepanyan's Il-2 photos were made was too sensitive to red and on positives red appears as black.  AFAIK this was called "ortho film"  Huh.

HTH,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2014, 11:32:23 PM »

ANT-25 in 1939 when it was displayed at the World Fair in New York:











the paint is quite dark and very glossy.  Exactly what we see on Stepanyan's Il-2.
HTH,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #118 on: December 03, 2014, 06:41:46 AM »

Hi,
Quote
TsKB-19 has relatively light engine cowling.
Note that the TsKB-19 exposed in Bourget isn't the same plane of the TsKB-15 exposed in Chkalow museum.
So we don't know if its nose was blue or of another color.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #119 on: December 03, 2014, 02:07:54 PM »

Hi Misos,

I've received some nev images from Vitaliy. I don''t know how much they can add.
The second image is of another pilot and dated 1943.
Skopintsev-VM-Kursy-commander-of-the-Naval-Air-Force-1943





Regards
Massimo
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