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Author Topic: Elabourately Painted IL-2  (Read 57927 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #135 on: December 04, 2014, 06:25:58 PM »

At present time I have no more informations. I've asked, of course.
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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #136 on: December 04, 2014, 07:42:36 PM »

Hi,
dark blue or green? Under some light circumstances green can looks like blue (see well known flight photo of group of Mustangs).
However, IMHO standard green (AMT-4) would be much easier accessible than non-standard pre-war dark blue
- Upper fuselage grey or light blue? Light blue looks nicer but (blue-)grey is one of standard upper surface color, at least for fighters.
- What was standard under surface color for  Il-2 of that type and time? If "ligh" light blue A-28m, then darker light blue AMT-7 for upper surface is option. But if AMT-7 was color for under surface, then grey for upper surface would be valid option.
- The engine cowling could be red (same as our last outcome), tail is darker than star, e.g. could be dark blue same as wing leading edges, and same as band around the spinner.
- Front part of spinner could be metallic white same as bright discs on the nacelles and same as thin bright lines.
- Spinner star could be red, same as nacelle stars and stripes on the wing leading edges.
- Canopy (framing) is questionable. Pure aesthetically, I do not like "third" decorative color, but three main colors totally (light blue/grey - red - dark blue/green) plus fourth color (white/metallic white) only for details and borders. In such case I would prefer red canopy framing and dark blue railing.
- Plus, as I wrote above, I would go for the same color for upper wings as for upper fuselage.
- If tail is dark blue/green, what color are bright horizontal stripes on the ruder? Color of the fuselage (light blue/grey) or red?
- Only thing where I am completely lost is that darker band on the wing root.
Regards,
   66misos
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barneybolac
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« Reply #137 on: December 04, 2014, 08:05:40 PM »

They are the usual ugly photos already seen, only in higher resolution. I'm not hidding secrets. To be more accurate, photos of photos.



No ill will intended on my part. I just have never seen these new photos before & was also not aware of who Vitaly is & his part with all this until the last few posts.

I would also say that what ever notes he wrote down would have to be the answers we have been looking for. Who else can second guess Vitaly  Huh
I would say no one at this stage of our search.
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KL
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« Reply #138 on: December 05, 2014, 02:20:01 AM »

dark blue or green? Under some light circumstances green can looks like blue (see well known flight photo of group of Mustangs).
However, IMHO standard green (AMT-4) would be much easier accessible than non-standard pre-war dark blue

Tail has to be a glossy dark green; that excludes AMT-4 which wasn't very dark anyway.  Such glossy dark green  paint would be as hard to find as pre-war glossy dark blue.


- What was standard under surface color for  Il-2 of that type and time? If "light" light blue A-28m, then darker light blue AMT-7 for upper surface is option. But if AMT-7 was color for under surface, then grey for upper surface would be valid option.

First two AMT paints were "protective green" AMT-4 and black AMT-6 introduced in summer 1941.  Light blue AMT-7 was introduced later in 1942 - so all planes made during the second half of 1941 and up to some (uncertain) time in 1942 had matt upper surfaces and glossy pre-war undersurfaces.  Transition from glossy to matt undersurfaces wasn't critical for VVS - they were always concerned only about the concealment of airplanes on airfields, not in the air.


- Spinner star could be red, same as nacelle stars and stripes on the wing leading edges.

I agree with your previous post:  6-point star was totally unrelated to the official 5-point Red Star and it didn't have to be red.


- Canopy (framing) is questionable.
...
- Only thing where I am completely lost is that darker band on the wing root.

Photos clearly show that both canopy and wing root band have to be the same matt, colour darker than fuselage and lighter than nose/tail.


- Plus, as I wrote above, I would go for the same color for upper wings as for upper fuselage.

Photos show that the wing was different colour than fuselage, white or metallic silver (probably same as propeller, spinner and necelle tips).

HTH,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #139 on: December 05, 2014, 06:18:26 AM »

Hi,
for what I have intended till now, the description of the plane was made by pilot  Mazurenko http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=133 that served in the same unit and saw the plane. The description is not contained in the linked page, I suppose it's in his memories. I'll ask for more.
Quote
I would also say that what ever notes he wrote down would have to be the answers we have been looking for. Who else can second guess Vitaly  Huh
I would say no one at this stage of our search.
I agree. Vitaliy Timoshenko (Tora on Russian forums) has provided me with a lot of images of Il-2; so I suppose he has access to many written informations too and is a reliable source.

The six-pointed star is clearly related to the usual red star. It has six points to use the simmetry of the propeller as a geometric reference, but it is nearly undistinguishable from a red star if seen from any perspective except for the frontal one.

Observing the photos from aside showing a rectangular whitish rectangle at the right wingroot, I think to see it is in slight relief I think it is a walkway made of fabric glued on a metal panel. It seems to have exactly the contour of a metallic panel on the wingroots. Probably paint adheres more on fabric than on metal surfaces.

Regards
Massimo


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KL
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« Reply #140 on: December 05, 2014, 06:44:42 AM »


The blue star doesn't make sense, we have to assume that it was red. I agree that the rear part of the spinner was darker, maybe blue as from the drawings of Montex.



The six-pointed star is clearly related to the usual red star. It has six points to use the simmetry of the propeller as a geometric reference, but it is nearly undistinguishable from a red star if seen from any perspective except for the frontal one.


Massimo,
all of us who lived in socialism have to lough on these statements!
You are saying that it didn't matter 5 or 6 points, if it was a red star - kind of, any star was good if it was red.  Grin

5-point red star was an ideology symbol  - it was everywhere: on national flags, party flags, on coats of arms, in official works of art...

I don't think anybody would dare to sell a "mutant" 6-point red star as an ideology symbol.  Ridiculing an official symbol could have been dangerous too.

How many 6-point red stars have you seen on VVS planes?  IMHO, none!!!  Probably for a good reason.


Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 06:51:04 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #141 on: December 05, 2014, 08:12:55 AM »

Hi,
for what I remember, it is the only six-pointed one i saw. It could also be that we have seen other ones, but the difference was not visible on a photo from the side.
But I remember the 5-pointed one of Galchenko, and some photos show that it was asymmetrical, certainly due to the lack of geometric references.
Now, a 3 blade propeller gives excellent geometric reference for a 6 point star. The difference from any perspective except the front one is not visible.
A star of another color, undistinguishable from a 5 pointed one, could have been more politically dangerous. It could have suggested to some political commissar that the painter or the pilot don't love red stars.
I know that there are examples of stars of other colors: silver, but on red i-16s; or the black star of the LAGG-3 of Mironov, but it has to be intended as a red star hidden with a camo color.
And another question: how many examples we have of planes painted in similar way in wartime, maybe by the same painter? One Yak-1?
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #142 on: December 05, 2014, 09:48:19 AM »

Hi,
I've had an answer from Vitaliy.
Quote
My friend talked to Mazurenko and mechanic of IL-2
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #143 on: December 05, 2014, 10:16:53 PM »

for what I have intended till now, the description of the plane was made by pilot  Mazurenko http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=133 that served in the same unit and saw the plane.

I've had an answer from Vitaliy.
Quote
My friend talked to Mazurenko and mechanic of IL-2

Hi Massimo,
thanks for the answers, special thanks to Vitaliy Timoshenko (aka Tora).  Info Vitaliy provides is valuable, but far from definitive.

Mazurenko and Stepanyan served in 57 pshap VVS KBF in 1941 and during most of 1942.  Mazurenko and Stepanyan were awarded with HSU golden stars on same day, Oct 23, 1942.  From there careers of two pilots took different directions:  Mazurenko soon became inspector with the Main Directorate of the VVS VMF and Stepanyan became an instructor.

This is where Mazurenko was in 1943 and 1944:
Quote
С января 1943 года - старший инспектор штурмовой авиации Главного Управления ВВС ВМФ. С февраля по июнь 1943 года находился в командировке на Севере, обучал действиям над морем лётчиков 46-го штурмового авиационного полка ВВС Северного флота (Архангельск). После прибытия полка на фронт выполнял боевые вылеты в его составе, продолжая учить лётчиков в боевой обстановке. В эти вылетах потопил в Баренцевом море 1 тральщик и 1 транспорт врага. В сентябре-октябре 1943 года участвовал в Новороссийско-Таманской наступательной операции, будучи прикомандован к одной из штурмовых полков ВВС Черноморского флота.

С января 1944 года и до конца войны - командир 7-го гвардейского штурмового авиационного полка 9-й штурмовой авиационной дивизии ВВС Краснознамённого Балтийского флота.

And this is where Stepanyan was:
Quote
Указом Президиума Верховного Совета СССР от 23 октября 1942 года был удостоен звания Героя Советского Союза, а в ноябре того же года капитан Степанян был назначен командиром эскадрильи 57-го штурмового полка.

Вскоре Степанян был назначен на курсы командиров звеньев ВВС Краснознамённого Балтийского флота, а затем и на Высшие офицерские курсы ВВС ВМФ, где принимал участие в подготовке квалифицированных кадров для авиации.

После многочисленных рапортов с просьбой о возвращении на фронт в апреле 1944 года Степанян назначается командиром 47-го ШАП (впоследствии ?Феодосийский?), который вёл бои в небе Крыма и Кубани. Под его командованием полк участвовал в боях под Севастополем, Феодосией, Судаком.

В мае 1944 г. после освобождения Крыма Степанян вместе со своим 47-м ШАП возвращается на Балтику...

From the above, Mazurenko and Stepanyan did not serve in the same unit at the time when "elabourately painted Il-2" photos were taken in autumn 1943/early 1944.  While Mazurenko remained in combat units,  Stepanyan had been far from the front and far from coasts for 1.5 year.  They were "reunited" in May 1944 when Stepanyan's 47 shap returned to Baltic.  At that time Stepanyan flew a different, combat Il-2.

Regards,
KL  
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 10:35:31 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #144 on: December 05, 2014, 10:34:17 PM »

Mazurenko Aleksey Yefimovich with one HSU golden star (between Oct 1942 and Nov 1944)



maybe someone could recognize him on "elabourately painted Il-2" photos?
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KL
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« Reply #145 on: December 05, 2014, 11:09:43 PM »


And another question: how many examples we have of planes painted in similar way in wartime, maybe by the same painter? One Yak-1?


Maybe this UTI-4

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #146 on: December 06, 2014, 07:50:12 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Maybe this UTI-4
Nice photo. It would deserve a drawing.

One of the photos of this plane, with another pilot aside it, is dated 1943. If this is right, this plane was utilized for a wide arc of time and its painting could have had an evolution that could justify, for example, the fact that the kremlin-style stars are visible on one photo only.
I agree that the informations of the pilot and mechanic are not definitive, but are a great progress anyway because we were largely guessing.
Regards
Massimo
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barneybolac
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« Reply #147 on: December 06, 2014, 01:26:50 PM »

I think the pilot's hands. I cropped the image to show this detail.

So left & right of the hand is the wing root we can see at the very back edge of the wing? If so that is the most clear image we have of that part of the aircraft at this point in time. You mentioned the image is cropped, by any chance is there more of the wing visible in the cropped portions?
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KL
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« Reply #148 on: December 06, 2014, 07:55:31 PM »

One of the photos of this plane, with another pilot aside it, is dated 1943. If this is right, this plane was utilized for a wide arc of time and its painting could have had an evolution that could justify, for example, the fact that the kremlin-style stars are visible on one photo only.

We allready knew that the plane was in service for longer period.  The plane may have been made in late 1942 and photos were made between Sept 1943 and April 1944.

Could you please check with Vitaliy when exactly was Skopintsev photographed by Stepanyan's Il-2.

I agree that the informations of the pilot and mechanic are not definitive, but are a great progress anyway because we were largely guessing.

With no names and dates, information is interesting, but not much more than roumors.  Fact that it is second hand (from a friend), doesn't help either; that friend could be Stankov...
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #149 on: December 07, 2014, 05:09:15 AM »

Hi,
Quote
We allready knew that the plane was in service for longer period.  The plane may have been made in late 1942 and photos were made between Sept 1943 and April 1944.
Yes, but it could also have been built in June 1943. What is interesting is when it was painted in that way.
Quote
Could you please check with Vitaliy when exactly was Skopintsev photographed by Stepanyan's Il-2.
Vitaliy writes English very few, I could ask but I think that the information is all contained in the title of the file.
Quote
With no names and dates, information is interesting, but not much more than roumors.  Fact that it is second hand (from a friend), doesn't help either; that friend could be Stankov...
Vitaliy is very well documented; if he trusts this friend, it's enough for me.
Regards
Massimo
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