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Author Topic: Elabourately Painted IL-2  (Read 52016 times)
learstang
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« Reply #165 on: December 10, 2014, 01:05:13 AM »

66misos, to answer your question about the recovered Il-2, that colour does appear to be ALG-1.

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #166 on: December 10, 2014, 05:28:12 AM »

Hi,

Quote
You should consider something else for fuselage instead of blue-gray AMT-11.  I still believe light blue AMT-7 is a valid option.

In late 1942 and 1943, AMT-7 was the color of undersurfaces. If the plane was relatively new when painted this way, I don't think that they repainted the lower surfaces. Besides, I think that the pilot and mechanic wouln't have defined it as grey.
The contrast visible on the sides of the fuselage is compatible with AMT-11. Eventually could be a mix of AMT-7 and black.

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #167 on: December 10, 2014, 06:50:16 PM »

In late 1942 and 1943, AMT-7 was the color of undersurfaces.

In late 1942 AMT-7 wasn't necessarily the only colour for undersides, especially for planes with metal wings

Besides, I think that the pilot and mechanic wouln't have defined it as grey.

All those references to a pilot and a mechanic memoirs/memories are baloneys.  Mazurenko (the pilot) did not have any connection with the school and he was thousands of kilometers away; he couldn't have possibly seen Stepanyan's Il-2.  Mazurenko did not leave any written memoirs, I couldn't find any interviews.  Unnamed mechanic is even less reliable/relevant.

The contrast visible on the sides of the fuselage is compatible with AMT-11. Eventually could be a mix of AMT-7 and black.

Since pilot and mechanic said gray (not blue-gray!) it should be a mix of black and white...

Regards,
KL

« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 06:52:59 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #168 on: December 10, 2014, 07:43:55 PM »

Hi,
here are additional "green" views:




Regarding exact color names mentioned in pilots/mechanics memoires this is from the Conversations with N. G. Golodnikov, P-39 pilot from 2 GIAP of the Northern Fleet Aviation (VVS SF), at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/golodnikov/part3.htm

"...We received the first Cobras from Moscow, in containers. We assembled them and then were trained on them. These were P-39Qs, perhaps types-1 and -2, from the British order. [Apparently that should be Aircobra I ? ed.]. They had yellow (Huh) camouflage paint on them for North Africa..."

Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #169 on: December 10, 2014, 08:13:57 PM »

Hi Misos,
few details for front view:



1.  I would limit olive green AMT-4 to light area (form of a "hook", see one of my previous posts), the rest of that wing root panel could be glossy dark green
2.  Dark green tail along necelle should be parallel to landing gear door (your interpretation is in wrong perspective)
3.  Rear part of the spinner is dark green.
4.  6-point star is dark green, dark blue or any other dark colour except red.

Regarding exact color names mentioned in pilots/mechanics memoires...

I found an interesting example on a Czechoslovak forum:
When asked about La-5FN colours in 1980es, Frantishek Fajtl, a WWII pilot who flew La-5FN in 1944 answered:  "Can you remember colour of the bus you rode on 2 weeks ago?"

Regards,
KL  
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 09:40:41 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #170 on: December 11, 2014, 06:24:36 AM »

Hi,
I don't understand how one can think, from these photos, that the wingroot shows anything different from reflections on a glossy surface.


The dark lines traced on the last photos are completely arbitrary.
Besides all the added-on colors on the nose and wings are separed by white lines. Why these aren't?

Is there any white line on the wingroot of this plane? Is there any white vee on its cooler?

Is there any white arrow on the side of this plane?


About the star: can you say for sure if this plane had a 5-braced or a 6-braced star? Who would put in doubt that it was red?


The memoirs of veterans can be right or wrong; anyway if they say to have seen the plane, it is more likely that they are right, if compared to a mere guess.
I don't think that they have answered 'How can I remember?' when someone has trascribed these colors as given from them.
How can you say that they can't have seen the plane? If they said so and were considered reliable by competent people, it should be right. How can you deny it because you didn't find any interviews?
I've received hundreds of photos from Vitaliy, many of them unpublished. How can I think that he is vaunting balloneys for informations, or that he can easily be fooled by some Munchausen?

Regards
Massimo
 

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66misos
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« Reply #171 on: December 11, 2014, 07:03:57 AM »

Hi,
front view with green spinner:

Regards,
   66misos
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barneybolac
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« Reply #172 on: December 11, 2014, 09:14:37 AM »

Hi,
front view with green spinner:

Regards,
   66misos

I have to disagree with KL on the hook shape is because of a different colour & pattern. It is a shadow I think caused by the bulge on the engine cowling just behind the exhaust pipes that is directly above the wing root.  The shape of that bulge is a near perfect match for the dark green area below it. Plus the other photo showing the opposite wing has no such pattern shape similar to this photo due to painting design.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 01:10:48 PM by barneybolac » Logged
KL
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« Reply #173 on: December 12, 2014, 03:17:03 AM »

Hi Massimo + Rodney,

that darker band (which is under the white line and which is now olive green) has to end somehow under the bulge and exhausts.  Instead of pointing to reflections that we all know exist on a glossy surface, please provide your solutions...  what colour is that "hook"?  If there is no "hook" what is going on with that AMT-4 band?





Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 03:21:25 AM by KL » Logged
barneybolac
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« Reply #174 on: December 12, 2014, 06:08:28 AM »

Hi Massimo + Rodney,

that darker band (which is under the white line and which is now olive green) has to end somehow under the bulge and exhausts.  Instead of pointing to reflections that we all know exist on a glossy surface, please provide your solutions...  what colour is that "hook"?  If there is no "hook" what is going on with that AMT-4 band?





Regards,
KL

I would take the AMT-4 band like this.






Excuse my attempt at painting on a PC this is out of my realm I can't contrast & shadow & so forth.

Take the bottom tip of the white line on either side of the engine cowling and blend the olive green to the paint line on the underside of the wing where the darker areas roll under the aircraft. Possibly on the second picture even wrap the olive green up & around some what of the intake? Just keep the width proportion's the same of that band on both wings.
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66misos
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« Reply #175 on: December 12, 2014, 07:06:59 AM »

Hi,
I have problem with that wing root band from the begining Wink
...Here I tried to find some "clean" way how to connect painting on the wing leading edge with the fuselage on the sharp photo - important are only shapes here, not colors -  unfortunately before I saw pictures above, so some white lines are missing and painting on the leading edge does not reaching up on upper wings as on the photos. I made it thinner than in reality.

...

Interesting note from discussion between Vitaly and M. Bykov at airforce.ru forum - that plane could be painted, repainted, again repainted and something added a lot of time, students damaged it several time.

Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #176 on: December 12, 2014, 07:28:50 AM »

Hi,
I agree with the shape drawn by Rodney (whole fillet in green) but it should be not AMT-4, but glossy emerald green.
Note that there is not any white line separing it from the lower part of the wing leading edge, on which there is consensus for emerald green.
Yes, there is a white line on the upper part, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the colors were different.
The hook, being a reflection, is justified only on a gloss paint, not on matt AMT-4.
The canopy frames are likely AMT-4 because this was the factory color, and could have been retouched only to delete eventual black bands of the camouflage. 
I think I'll start to draw a profile of this plane. It will be an huge work.
Regards
Massimo
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barneybolac
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« Reply #177 on: December 12, 2014, 09:09:56 AM »


Note that there is not any white line separing it from the lower part of the wing leading edge,
Quote

Agreed I was talking about the two that run either side of the wing roots & where they end at the very tip of the white line near the engine.

I did not make myself clear enough sorry.
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66misos
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« Reply #178 on: December 12, 2014, 09:43:30 AM »

Hi,
look at these photos, specifically to the part of the wing leading edge between nacelle and fuselage:





Similar painting or only shining panel edges? However, I do not see all that panel lines on this photo:



Dark green band on the wing root would be elegant solution - no problems with connection of light and dark green, it would simply continue from the wing leading edge and visually sepparate wing from the fuselage. Then I have only problem with this photo, where band is either quite bright or completly missing:


Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #179 on: December 12, 2014, 10:06:52 AM »

Hi Misos,
I think that the band of the last photo is lighter because inclined upwards and reflects the sky.
I see the lines on the plane of Emelyanenko (or Ostapenko), but I can't say what they are. The underlying painting looks still camouflaged. Maybe it's a drawing for a painting still to do?
Regards
Massimo
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