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Elabourately Painted IL-2
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Author Topic: Elabourately Painted IL-2  (Read 100584 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #90 on: November 26, 2014, 08:55:17 PM »

Quote
I haven't mentioned white pigments anywhere, so stop distorting what I really said.  
I know perfectly well what were AE-8 and AII Al, it was you who few years ago asked from me evidence that AE-8 was silver, not gray - those posts are still buried somewhere on this forum.  No need to teach me something you have learned from me...

Seems to me that you are using this improper name 'metallic white' to distort the fact that something on a photo hasn't the typical look of aluminium paint.  
Yes, aluminium can look as white in some circumstances. On  flat surface reflecting the sky, for example.
It can also look as dark grey, if the flat surface reflects the ground.
If the surface is curved, reflects the sky, the ground, etc and has a typical contrasted look.
Now, I  don't see this on the spinner, nor on the front of the nacelle.

I know for sure that the pigment on aluminium paints is aluminium powder. The difference in the look of the painted surface depends more on how the paint is mixed than on its brand. Yes, there can be variations relative to the thickness of the grains, the proportion between pigment and transparent components etc, but the mixing can change completely the look of the finished surface.

Another thing, much more important than the colors on a plane of seventy years ago:
Quote
I haven't mentioned white pigments anywhere, so stop distorting what I really said.  
I know perfectly well what were AE-8 and AII Al, it was you who few years ago asked from me evidence that AE-8 was silver, not gray - those posts are still buried somewhere on this forum.  No need to teach me something you have learned from me...

You are accusing me to distort your words.
You are also adding that, if I know something, it's only because you have teached it to me... no matter that good translations of Orlov and other documents are available since years ago.
That is enough!
People on this forum knows how to discuss in polite way, in general. This is required to all the members.

Regards
Massimo







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barneybolac
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« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2014, 11:48:07 AM »


See Reply #46 - Barneybolac seems to have a better resolution image.  What is posted there is 500x308 image, but the cropped image is 1023x595.

Rodney, could you please post higher res photo you found?

Regards,
KL

I am sorry I just noticed your request.

The two photos in #46 are the same picture. I took the first picture in #46 & using paint.net I enlarged it & took a screenshot of the enlargement & that is the second picture.

I had done several shots that I gave to a friend for a possible skin. I think this was the first one that I did before I started drawing on them.




Also a question in regards to the presentation of this IL-2. It was clearly a big event on the day with photographers & so on. Where was this presentation done & if known is it possible that reporting done on the day, may have actually described his plane in some detail. Since the papers would have been in a black & white & the photos of course if any were published at that time. So they may have described it for the benefit of the readers?

I have no idea what the media coverage would have been like in Russia during WWII under Communism it may be worth looking into though. 
Old news stories in Western papers are kept on Microfiche is it possible that a similar process has taken place in Russia since this event?
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66misos
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« Reply #92 on: November 27, 2014, 05:16:47 PM »

Hi Barney,
nice photo. I would say that wing root is the same color as fuselage (and same as upper wings), there is only a white line. And darker part just bellow pilot's cockpit is only dirty paint. And that color is (semi) glossy, note different shadows above and bellow the panel line on the fuselage, just bellow the cockpit - we can see reflection of the fuselage on the wing. And that there is a band of matt paint (light grey on bw photo) exactly where black walkway is usually, therefore no reflection there.
Fuselage looks nice bright glossy paint. From those used as a standard in VVS that time (to make is fast & simple) I would say that it could be alluminium white/silver Wink And that walkway at the wing root is something light grey, probably AMT-11.

Another photos found at internet:


"Stepanyan at his repainted-on-the-top Il-2"
Seems re-painting process is not finished yet here:
- no stripes on the propeller blades,
- still single-color stars on the nacelles,
- no bright outline around the circle background of the nacelle stars,
- bright (white?) outline of the circle background and star on the propeller spinner.
Unfortunately, photo is heavily retouched, so who knows what is real.

These both photos from http://airfighters.ru/stepn_ng.php are dated to Leningrad, 1942, so none of them show his colorfull plane from the training school:
     

Photos from http://waralbum.ru/152009/:
Pilot from 57 PShAP of Baltic Fleet N.G.Stepanyan at Il-2, Leningrad, November 1941


Il-2 from the same unit, 57 PShAP, 1942:




From Massimo's Mig3 page http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/mark-colors/mark-colors.html could that right one:

be a candidate for dark red color
and this:

the candidate for dark blue color?

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 05:25:06 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2014, 06:24:15 PM »

Hi Misos, hi all,
this photo from the front shows white fillets on the spinner, so it could really be that the background of the star is silver.
I'm not sure that there are not stripes on the prop, they could be hidden by reflection because the sun is at the back of the photographer.
Two candidates for blues are:
A-9

A-10

and their eventual nitro equivalents.

The datation of the first photo of 1942 is likely wrong, that plane is the same in discussion. The style and position of the star is uncompatible with the factory standard, to say nothing of the light and uniform background and of the dark line on the wingroot. Besides I see a panel line on the upper part of the fuselage that is typical of twoseaters, being a metal plate around the gunner's hatch.

About a white fillet on the lower part of the front of engine nacelles: to tell the truth, I'm not sure at all to see it on the large front photo.
 
Regards
Massimo

« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 06:35:20 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2014, 07:47:12 PM »

Also a question in regards to the presentation of this IL-2. It was clearly a big event on the day with photographers & so on. Where was this presentation done & if known is it possible that reporting done on the day, may have actually described his plane in some detail. Since the papers would have been in a black & white & the photos of course if any were published at that time. So they may have described it for the benefit of the readers?

Technically speaking this wasn't a "presentation plane" - it wasn't bought from donations and presented to a pilot or a regiment.  It isn't clear if all photos have been taken during a single or during several photo sessions...  considering that Stepanyan may have flown this plane over some 6 months, 2-3 sessions are more likely   Huh

Only one photo (below) indicates a significant date.  It's a group photo, probably Stepanyan together with school commanders and students.  It could be a welcome or a farewell photo.  IMHO, it wasn't a big celebration, no flags, salutes etc.



If this was a farewell photo, April 1944 would be a correct date.  Stepanyan really left flying school in April 1944 to take over command of the 47 shap.


Photo from the last post by Misos is clearly mislabeled, wrong place and wrong date.



Photo was taken sometime between autumn 1943 and spring 1944, not in 1942.  Photo caption says  "Combat task received" - this is also wrong; no combat tasks in flying school.

HTH,
KL
  
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 07:57:31 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #95 on: November 27, 2014, 08:48:29 PM »

this photo from the front shows white fillets on the spinner, so it could really be that the background of the star is silver.
I'm not sure that there are not stripes on the prop, they could be hidden by reflection because the sun is at the back of the photographer.

It's really strange that white outline around the spinner star isn't visible on better quality photos:





Even the "white ring" at the base of light painted part of the spinner could be a panel line or jpg compression artifact on better rez photos.

Keep in mind that the top photo is retouched - it isn't very reliable.  I would rely more on better rezolution, un-retouched photos.

Two candidates for blues are:
A-9

A-10

and their eventual nitro equivalents.

A-9 and A-10 were interior oil paints, not exterior paints.  Exterior aviation paints with these colours have been produced before the war, but it is unlikely that those were available in 1943 when Stepanyan's Il-2 was repainted.  This is even more true for nitro paints in A-9 and A-10 colours; it is almost certain that those were not available in 1943.

IMHO, standard camouflage paints and paints used for markings are much more realistic to expect on Stepanyan's Il-2.  So, darker red is much more likely than dark blue for engine cowling


About a white fillet on the lower part of the front of engine nacelles: to tell the truth, I'm not sure at all to see it on the large front photo.

I agree - no white border line between dark red wing leading edge and underside light blue.

Regards,
KL  
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 08:50:23 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2014, 10:18:14 PM »

Hi,
was that dark standard VVS color? What was number of that paint? I never saw it in any table of VVS paints Huh
According to Orlov-Vakhamov aircrafts were painted strictly with aircraft paints and due to technology reasons they did not combine layers of AMT-xx and A-xxm paints.
In other words, why should be any nonstandard VVS paint in the school unit in quantity enough to paint significant part of the aircraft.
IMHO, painting was performed by "professional" artist with the goal to make striking appearance, not circus showcase of all available paints.
From this POW that dark red could be mix of standard red and black, or it was not red at all, but some other standard dark color which esthetically goes with light blue undrewings, silver/alluminium upper wings and fuselage and with red stars and stripes - I would vote for dark grey (AMT-12) - standard paint for Il-2 in 1944.
Sorry for a bit longer text Wink
Look at stars on the naceles - they do not look like only two-color, but carefully shaded multicolor (dark red-red-orange-yellow) artwork like guard emblems and medals. Or as the multicolor artwork on the rear fuselage.
Regards,
    66misos
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KL
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« Reply #97 on: November 28, 2014, 12:52:04 AM »

...was that dark standard VVS color? What was number of that paint? I never saw it in any table of VVS paints Huh
According to Orlov-Vakhamov aircrafts were painted strictly with aircraft paints and due to technology reasons they did not combine layers of AMT-xx and A-xxm paints.
In other words, why should be any nonstandard VVS paint in the school unit in quantity enough to paint significant part of the aircraft.
IMHO, painting was performed by "professional" artist with the goal to make striking appearance, not circus showcase of all available paints.
From this POW that dark red could be mix of standard red and black, or it was not red at all, but some other standard dark color which esthetically goes with light blue undrewings, silver/alluminium upper wings and fuselage and with red stars and stripes - I would vote for dark grey (AMT-12) - standard paint for Il-2 in 1944.

As I said in Reply #89:
-  only standard external aviation paints available in 1943/44 should be used for interpretation, no mixed paints
-  number of paints/colours used in interpretation should be kept as low as possible

But, check this plane made in 1943 and repainted in 1944/45:





-  Darker "raspberry" red is typical for 1941-43, "carrot" red is typical for 1944-45.
-  Darker shade of blue is wartime AMT-7, lighter shade is post war paint in line with pre-war A-18f and AII Sv Gol.

All four paints were possible on Stepanyan's Il-2.  It was made in early 1943 (maybe even earlier) and it was repainted in autumn 1943.
Its undersides were almost certinly same as undersides of the wreck preserved in Kiev:



This early two-seater was made in late 1942 and its wing are painted in a colour that looks like prewar A-18f and AII Light Blue, not darker AMT-7.  So undersides of Stepanyan's Il-2 were most likely "light" light blue A-18f or AII Lt Blue, not AMT-7...

If undersides are A-18f, then we have a "nice, elegant" AMT-7 left for fuselage.  We all agree that Stepanyan's Il-2 fuselage looks matt; and AMT-7 is matt!!!  AMT-7 is also the lightest AMT paint - if you carefully analyze  photos of Stepanyan's Il-2, its fuselage looks lighter than usually seen AMT camouflage paints.

HTH,
KL
  
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 01:08:25 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2014, 07:05:19 AM »

Hi,
This summary is from KL's Reply #89, I already modified it according to IMHO. So let's add particular colors there to get final, most probably picture:
-  canopy colour is lighter than fuselage red star and it is most likely matt (thanks Massimo!)
-  canopy railing is the same color as canopy framing, but looks darker due to shadow and/or grease and/or dirty.
-  fuselage top and sides are very light and most likely matt - matt light blue AMT-7,
-  fuselage underside is even lighter than its sides and possibly glossy - "light" light blue A-18f or AII Lt Blue,
-  engine cowling and wing leading edges are visibly glossy,
-  rectangle areas outlined white are brighter than wing leading edges,
-  stars on the naceles - they look carefully shaded multicolor (dark red-red-orange-yellow) artwork like guard emblems and medals. Or as the multicolor artwork on the rear fuselage.
-  Silver "metallic white" for wing top, spinner and nacelle tips.
-  bright matt walkway at wing root - matt white?

This is from my Reply #92:
I would say that wing root is the same color as fuselage (and same as upper wings), there is only a white line. And darker part just bellow pilot's cockpit is only dirty paint. And that color is (semi) glossy, note different shadows above and bellow the panel line on the fuselage, just bellow the cockpit - we can see reflection of the fuselage on the wing. And that there is a band of matt paint (light grey on bw photo) exactly where black walkway is usually, therefore no reflection there.
Fuselage looks nice bright glossy paint. From those used as a standard in VVS that time (to make is fast & simple) I would say that it could be alluminium white/silver Wink And that walkway at the wing root is something light grey, probably AMT-11.

AMT paints could look quite glossy, see both planes on this photo:


Here I colorized another alternatives:

- bottom fuselage and underwings is "light" light blue A-18f or AII Lt Blue,
- side and top fuselage and upper wings is matt/semigloss light blue AMT-7,
- engine cowling, tail, whole canopy and wing leading edges is matt/semigloss dark grey AMT-12, which was standard color for Il-2, so easy available,
- red is gloss, so only stars and rectangles on the wing leading edges are red. Why should they have two different red colors ("cherry" and "carrot") at the school, when only one was standard at the time?
- wheel discs are standard dark green.


- same as above except:
- engine cowling, tail and wing leading edges are semigloss/glossy "cherry" red (early war color),
- whole canopy and stars are semigloss/glossy "carrot" red (late war color).

Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 05:45:42 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2014, 05:55:38 PM »

Hi Misos,

It should be like this:




I am using a phrase "wing root band" for a band which is under the white trim line.  Wing root band is:
-  the same colour as canopy framing
-  darker than area above the white trim line
-  lighter than fuselage red star
-  it's matt.

All these properties are clearly visible here:



Wing root band and canopy are most likely blue-gray AMT-11.  This colour will make Massimo happy too:  he proposed dark gray AMT-12 for canopy; AMT-11 is close enough.


Area above the white line is called "fuselage" and it extends towards the tail (fuselage sides and top behind the rear gunner's cockpit).  Fuselage is:
-lighter than usual AMT-11 and AMT-12
-darker than undersides
-matt (no doubts about this)

The best fit for "fuselage" is light blue AMT-7 !!!  Forget old profiles, those profile artists didn't know anything about this plane.  Fuselage is light blue, not gray.

Finally, to keep things simple, top of wings is entirely painted in silver AE-8.  There are no walk ways, everything from "wing root band" to wing tip is "glowing" silver
Following photo shows wing top the best:



I can't see any other colour on wing top - it's all glowing silver...
For your reference some modern examples of "glowing" silver, also called "serebryanka":









HTH,
KL


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Troy Smith
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« Reply #100 on: November 28, 2014, 09:56:31 PM »

Given the gaudy nature, would not red canopy framing be a better choice?

the grey tone of the canopy is the same/similar to the red star and nose. 

My  'logic' is that the scheme has  been done for decorative effect, and the canopy framing has been repainted,  I'd do the canopy framing red, not  dark grey.

fascinating thread.

cheers
T

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KL
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« Reply #101 on: November 29, 2014, 01:40:35 AM »


-  canopy railing is the same color as canopy framing, but looks darker due to shadow and/or grease and/or dirty.

canopy railing is darker then canopy and same as fuselage red star.  It has to be red!.  And it is definitively glossy.





no shadows and/or grease and/or dirty...

HTH,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #102 on: November 29, 2014, 07:05:16 AM »

Hi all,
let's see the silver wings

you can see that the silver paint on the hand puts in strong evidence the minute details of the skin, because its reflection is strongly influenced by the angle of view and surrounding lights and shadows.

you can see that the wing of an Il-2, more or less of the same period, is full of clearly visible rivets and panel lines

You can see that the panel lines of Il-2 are visible on the fuselage, even if it is painted with a matt paint.

Now, look at the photos of the wings, supposedly painted silver. Panel lines and rivets should be greatly evident. Do you see them (apart possibly for one)? Do you see the reflection of the dark nose on the wing?

Now, I hope that the matt finish of the frames is evident.
Look at the wingroot:

Is this paint matt? I would say no, it's gloss. I don't know if it is the same color of the nose and leading edge, but it's gloss.
Can it be the same matt color of the frame?

Quote
A-9 and A-10 were interior oil paints, not exterior paints.  Exterior aviation paints with these colours have been produced before the war, but it is unlikely that those were available in 1943 when Stepanyan's Il-2 was repainted.  This is even more true for nitro paints in A-9 and A-10 colours; it is almost certain that those were not available in 1943.

Why red A-13 can be utilized for exteriors, and A-9 and A-10 not? If they had to paint a blue number or spinner, why shouldn't them use colors already in inventory for the maintenance of internal systems?

Anyway, oil paints are not likely on the rear fuselage that was wooden, and already painted with nitro paint. I would assume that the work was made with equivalent nitro paints, at least on the rear fuselage and tail. From an illustrative point, this is not relevant.

Quote
This early two-seater was made in late 1942 and its wing are painted in a colour that looks like prewar A-18f and AII Light Blue, not darker AMT-7.  So undersides of Stepanyan's Il-2 were most likely "light" light blue A-18f or AII Lt Blue, not AMT-7...
If undersides are A-18f, then we have a "nice, elegant" AMT-7 left for fuselage.  We all agree that Stepanyan's Il-2 fuselage looks matt; and AMT-7 is matt!!!  AMT-7 is also the lightest AMT paint - if you carefully analyze  photos of Stepanyan's Il-2, its fuselage looks lighter than usually seen AMT camouflage paints.

This type if il-2s were built between November 1942 and July 1943. I don't see reason to think that they utilized AII blue and even less A-18f. I would say that likely color for the first half of 1943 is AMT-7. Perhaps metal parts could be painted with the similar A-28m.
The blue could have been darker in origin, and then faded. But I see some glowing around the landing gear doors, so I think that the undersurface was repainted with some semigloss paint. Could also be AII light blue, if they still found it in 1944.

I don't see reason to exclude mixed paints. The paints for the painting on the side images, at least, certainly required a mixing to create a realistic effect.
If the plane was painted by a painter, then it could be a point of honour to use personalized colors.  We could suppose that the colors were standard to make things simple, but it is only an assumption.

I agree that the photo showing fillets could have been retouched. Other photos are questionable, they show some white outlines, but they show them around the profiles of men too, so it can be a jpg artifact.
If we assume that there were not fillets, then my guess for the front of nacelles and spinner is still gloss white.

Regards
Massimo
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #103 on: November 29, 2014, 11:25:06 AM »

 There are very good reasons why internal paints would not be used for exteriors - they are made with different chemical (and possibly physical i.e. grain size) constituents.  Internal paints do not have to meet the harsh environment whilst being thin, light, and staying attached to aluminium.  Without any specific knowledge of VVS practices, I'm sure that all kinds of paint would be used for the painting of decorative items and not just the limited range available for aircraft externals.    So for small areas, badges, or a one-off "lets have a show that doesn't have to endure" then yes, various paints/colours would be used, and looking at the more attractive artwork sometimes carried, like this one, it's a pretty safe assumption that they were.
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66misos
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« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2014, 04:35:51 PM »

Hi,
another alternatives:

- all under surfaces "light" light blue A-18f or AII Lt Blue or A-28m, which are lighter than AMT-7,
- side and top fuselage light blue AMT-7,
- canopy railing same red as stars,
- canopy framing and band at the wing root blue-grey AMT-11,
- wheel discs standard dark green,
- wing upper surfaces, front part of the propeller spiner, front part of the propeller blades and circles behind the stars on the nacelles gloss white or alluminium (metallic white),
- engine cowling, tail and wing leading edges same red as stars.
However, in this case I do not know, what color could be white-oultlined stripes at the wing leading edges (here not colorized):
.

But if engine cowling, tail and wing leading edges are dark blue, then white-oultlined stripes at the wing leading edges could be red:



From my "artistic" point of view this blue version looks better Wink

Example of dark blue is taken from this picture, as I have no other color photo of VVS dark blue:


Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 04:52:03 PM by 66misos » Logged

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