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Elabourately Painted IL-2
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Author Topic: Elabourately Painted IL-2  (Read 100578 times)
66misos
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« Reply #75 on: November 24, 2014, 06:46:21 AM »

Hi,
interesting discussion. That plane looks like parrot. Roll Eyes Was operational, or only kind of "spare" somewhere in the rear wildly painted (like shark-mouth La-5)?
Wings were wood or metal (Jason, sorry for silly question). As far as I know the AMT paint for wood were quite glossy, but A-XXm for metal were hard matt.


Photo of colorized winter Airacobra Mk.1 reminds me glossy upper surface with reflection. There is dark band on the wing root, then some matt bright color and the glossy bright color with the reflection of the relatively dark fuselage (in this case darker than sky) on it.

Note the thin dark line on the wing behind the pilot's right arm:

It could make border between those two bright colors mentioned above.
From what I saw basicaly every nonstandard painted area on this plane has some outline.
According to the soft shadows on the ground it does not look like bright sunny day but moreless cloudy day. So no shining even on the glossy surfaces.

Do you have, please, this photo (or similar):

in the resolution at least 200DPI and longer side at least 2K for colorizing purpose?

Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #76 on: November 24, 2014, 12:25:06 PM »

Hi,
I would say that it's a plane of Z.18, with metal wings. The rear of the canopy is slightly different from those of other factories: the last two vertical frames are closer ( I don't know if the total length of the rear part of the canopy is the same of other factories or slightly less).
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #77 on: November 24, 2014, 08:23:34 PM »

That plane looks like parrot. Roll Eyes Was operational, or only kind of "spare" somewhere in the rear wildly painted (like shark-mouth La-5)?

Of course this wasn't a combat airplane - it was Stepanyan's "personal plane" at the time when he was an instructor in flying school in rear.  We are not discussing camouflage in any form here; the plane was painted to look as distinctive (or decorative) as possible.

AMT paint for wood were quite glossy, but A-XXm for metal were hard matt.

AMT paints were matt (or as matt as A-XXm paints).  VVS and NKAP requested matt paints as a replacement for glossy AII paints and VIAM formulated them in 1941/42.  Only camouflage colours were included in AMT series of paints.  This switch from glossy to matt camouflage paints was considered as an important improvement.

Note the thin dark line on the wing behind the pilot's right arm:

It could make border between those two bright colors mentioned above.
From what I saw basicaly every nonstandard painted area on this plane has some outline.

You have to take in account and consider all photos from the series and you will get an idea what parts of the plane were painted in same colour (see Reply #65) - wing root panel and cockpit canopy framing/armor plates were painted in same colour.  The question is what color...  Huh

According to the soft shadows on the ground it does not look like bright sunny day but more-less cloudy day. So no shining even on the glossy surfaces.

IMHO, absolutely correct!!!  Overcast, grayish-blue sky and no reflections on glossy surfaces.  For example, red star was glossy (AMT red hasn't ever been formulated), but on all photos it looks flat.

Do you have, please, this photo (or similar):

in the resolution at least 200DPI and longer side at least 2K for colorizing purpose?

See Reply #46 - Barneybolac seems to have a better resolution image.  What is posted there is 500x308 image, but the cropped image is 1023x595.

Rodney, could you please post higher res photo you found?

Regards,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #78 on: November 24, 2014, 08:54:35 PM »

I suppose that the canopy frames could be painted grey: AMT-11, 12 or a mix of them. They are the only matt colours that seem nice on a supposed grey/red/blue/white livery, and minimize the visibility of frames. Olive green (original) look possible, but less nice.
The stripe on the fillet... hard to say, I think red, it looks lighter than the nose but this could be due to the different inclination. The main question is if the nose is red, dark red or blue.

If canopy frames are AMT-11, what is the fuselage color?

IMHO, canopy frames and armor plates were painted in one of "decorative" paints to look better, not to minimize the visibility of frames.  Wing root panel wasn't painted in same color to minimize its visibility.  Canopy and wing root are best seen on the following photo:



Realistically, dark red and dark blue are the only options for nose and tail.

Regards,
KL

« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 08:58:26 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #79 on: November 24, 2014, 10:11:54 PM »

Hi,
here I briefly colorized front-view photo:

- front fuselage dark blue:


- alternatively front fuselage dark red:


- under surface je light blue AMT-7,
- upper surface, propeller spinner and front of nacelles are light blue-grey AMT-11,
- band on the wing root and canopy framing are dark grey AMT-12,
- wheel discs are dark green.
Colors are not perfectly tunned, just to give feeling about overall appearance.
Hope it helps in the discussion.
regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 10:22:31 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #80 on: November 24, 2014, 11:05:47 PM »

Hi Misos,
thanks for the help!

IMHO, colorized photos show that gray canopy and wing roots are not "decorative" at all and not likely.  Many small details should be changed:

- tail is the same color as engine cowling
- wedge in front of the windscreen is the same color as engine cowling
- wing leading edge is the same color as engine cowling
- canopy railings are the same color as engine cowling (darker than canopy framing)
- no white line on undersides between the dark colour and light blue
- spinner and disks on necelle tips are white, same as propeller blades
- no red & white rings between the white and dark part of the spinner

regards, KL
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 11:37:13 PM by KL » Logged
barneybolac
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« Reply #81 on: November 25, 2014, 06:47:37 AM »

Hi,
here I briefly colorized front-view photo:

- front fuselage dark blue:


- alternatively front fuselage dark red:


- under surface je light blue AMT-7,
- upper surface, propeller spinner and front of nacelles are light blue-grey AMT-11,
- band on the wing root and canopy framing are dark grey AMT-12,
- wheel discs are dark green.
Colors are not perfectly tunned, just to give feeling about overall appearance.
Hope it helps in the discussion.
regards,
    66misos

That is interesting you took those white lines in every direction I was thinking. Especially the one that travels up & over the wing along the wing radius. It was pointed out that it may be a issue with the photo jpeg compression. I do have a question though about the nacelles however. I believe the dark colour might possibly runs along most of the length of the outside face of the nacelles. Or is it some sort of stain & the profile below is more accurate in regards to the area I have shown in the photo?

For example.








 Also the outer band on the propeller that seems to be another colour than the inner band. Possible yellow outer red inner. Then thicker for red being the prominent colour of the Soviet flag & yellow for the thinner band to represent the smaller portion of yellow on the flag for the hammer & sickle?
Pure speculation on my part there.
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66misos
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« Reply #82 on: November 25, 2014, 07:02:43 AM »

Hi,
just finished one alternative of the side view:

I am not sure about the white spinner and disks on nacelle tips - there is brighter thin band on the spinner and nacelle tips looks similarly grey (or even darker) than under surface color.
Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 07:04:21 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #83 on: November 25, 2014, 07:55:03 AM »

Hi Misos, hi all,
the idea that reflections are revealed by the sun only isn't right, they are mainly revealed by the changes of angulation between the observer and the reflecting surface. On a curved surface, it's easy to see eventual reflections.
The canopy frames appear matt, while the band at the wingroots is gloss, as visible with its change of angulation on the image from the front.
The idea that the canopy frames are of the same color of the band at the wingroot is surely wrong.
There was no matt red in Soviet inventory, for what I know.
Being matt, the frame should be in a mix of AMT or A-xxm colors, that are all camo colors.
My guess is for a mix of light blue AMT-7 or A-28m and A-32m or black; all these colors were utilized on Il-2s in 1944 and should have been easily available on that school in the maintenance depot.
The same for the upper part of the fuselage, but with light blue prevailing on the darker shade.
The supposed blue fillet is clearly extended backwards on the outer side of nacelles.
I don't think that the spinner and front of the nacelles, around the stars, have grey or silver backgrounds. They should be gloss white imho.
The irregular white points around the front of the spinner could have due to drops of paint that have accumulated with the piece painted front-up, so they mark a relief rather than a variation in colour. Or perhaps, they could be traces of color beyond the division line on the contour of the rear part of the spinner, if the pieces were painted with the front still mounted on the plane (I don't think so). Anyway they are too irregular to be identified as a white ring.
About the dark shade of the lower part of the supposed white front of the nacelle, just behind the pilot: it appears darker than the corresponding part on the other side because it reflects the dark back of the pilot's uniform. This part appers even darker than the light blue of the nacelle under it, that is matt and has no directional reflections.
I hope this helps.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #84 on: November 25, 2014, 08:39:37 PM »

the idea that reflections are revealed by the sun only isn't right, they are mainly revealed by the changes of angulation between the observer and the reflecting surface. On a curved surface, it's easy to see eventual reflections.

Poor science - no light source, no reflections, no colors, no optics.  It is true though, that curved surface reflects light differently than flat surface

The canopy frames appear matt, while the band at the wingroots is gloss, as visible with its change of angulation on the image from the front.
The idea that the canopy frames are of the same color of the band at the wingroot is surely wrong.

Canopy frames may appear matt because the frames and especially canopy armor plates, are actually flat surfacesWing root may appear glossy because it is a curved surface.  Mind you that the wing root is the most pronounced and the largest concave surface on any plane, so it will always look different than the rest of the plane...

Anyway, canopy frames and the wing root  band are surely the same colour.  What colour, we don't know - it's only clear that the colour is darker than fuselage and significantly lighter than engine cowling...  If you can prove that this unknown color is really matt, the number of options would be reduced and that would be really good!  Smiley

Being matt, the frame should be in a mix of AMT or A-xxm colors, that are all camo colors.
My guess is for a mix of light blue AMT-7 or A-28m and A-32m or black...

So far we have always assumed use of pure paints.  No mixing otherwise any color is possible (purple and pink for example).  What would be the purpose of this mixing - to create matt dark blue-gray?  Visually it would be the same as pure dark gray AMT-12.  No need for mixing.

The same for the upper part of the fuselage, but with light blue prevailing on the darker shade.

I don't understand what part of the fuselage and what shade...

The supposed blue fillet is clearly extended backwards on the outer side of nacelles.
I don't think that the spinner and front of the nacelles, around the stars, have grey or silver backgrounds. They should be gloss white imho.

I agree:  dark colour extends along nacelle under the wing.  I also agree that the spinner and nacelle tips are white

... front of the spinner... Anyway they are too irregular to be identified as a white ring.

Agree:  no white ring...


About the dark shade of the lower part of the supposed white front of the nacelle, just behind the pilot: it appears darker than the corresponding part on the other side because it reflects the dark back of the pilot's uniform. This part appers even darker than the light blue of the nacelle under it, that is matt and has no directional reflections.

Reflections and shades on nacelle tips would be even easier to explain if we consider them as silver (or more precisely "metallic white").

Regards,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #85 on: November 25, 2014, 09:46:49 PM »

just finished one alternative of the side view:


Hi Misos,
that looks very good!  I hope it is in layers so you could change colours and allow us to experiment?

Details to check/change/correct:

- IMHO the art is a regular, full ellipse, not a flattened oval
- strip that covers transition between windshield and fuselage is same color as canopy framing
- antenna mast is same color as fuselage
- IMHO no thin red line on wing; it's a panel line
- shading of undersides should be darker, locally close to black (more contrast)

Maybe you could also colorize background and the pilot?  Ground could be something like a football field in Slovakia in October or in early April.

regards,
KL
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 10:09:54 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #86 on: November 26, 2014, 10:16:11 AM »

Hi,
Quote
Canopy frames may appear matt because the frames and especially canopy armor plates, are actually flat surfaces.  Wing root may appear glossy because it is a curved surface.
Canopy frames are flat on the top and side only. Top and side are not parallel, and they are joined by a curved surface. Here I can't see any sight of gloss refection, differently than on wingroots, nose and tail fillet.
Take into account that the canopy appears on many photos from many perspectives, and none of them shows it gloss.

Quote
I don't understand what part of the fuselage and what shade...

The part that is supposed to be AMT-11. It can also be that there was not AMT-11 in a school where they flew Shturmoviks that didn't use it, so it had to be a mix of light blue and dark grey or black. This could help to explain the strangely dishomogeneous look of this surface. Anyway, this doesn't make much difference about the resulting shade.
Just, I think that the frames look too light to be pure AMT-12, so I think that it could be a lighter mix.

Quote
Reflections and shades on nacelle tips would be even easier to explain if we consider them as silver (or more precisely "metallic white").
I don't think, the dark parts should be much more marked.
The other nacelle front should reflect much darker parts where it faces the nose side and the ground. What I think to see is that they reflect in the same manner of the glossy dark leading edge.
Silver is 'metallic white' just as gold is 'metallic yellow'. Only a name, not even official.  If you go to buy a car, these names have very different meanings.
No white pigment in AII aluminium colors, only aluminium powder, medium and transparent components. I can't see why they should be different from Humbrol, Gunze and so on.
Unless you mean that he mixed silver with white... possible, I've tried, but the result is similar to light grey.
Regards
Massimo

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66misos
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« Reply #87 on: November 26, 2014, 03:24:53 PM »

Hi,
as far as I know from this discussion and from other forums
- this plane was in the training/school unit, not in combat one,
- was that training school only for Il-2 or also for fighters (this could determine available paints)?
- color palette in VVS was quite limited,
- paints available on the local stocks were quite limited, sometimes even in PARMs, often resulting in improvisation during repairs.
- supplies for training units had lower priority than for combat units,
- AMT paints had very poor durability when applied directly on A-xxm paints.
- white and silver were equivalents for marking, numbers etc., both could be similarly available.

I personally would prefer silver for this kind of decorative painting. Plus to make work fast and simple I would avoid mixing paints.

Could this summary help to determine or exclude paints for this Il-2?
Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #88 on: November 26, 2014, 07:57:47 PM »

No white pigment in AII aluminium colors, only aluminium powder, medium and transparent components....
Unless you mean that he mixed silver with white... possible, I've tried, but the result is similar to light grey.

Hi,
I haven't mentioned white pigments anywhere, so stop distorting what I really said.  
I know perfectly well what were AE-8 and AII Al, it was you who few years ago asked from me evidence that AE-8 was silver, not gray - those posts are still buried somewhere on this forum.  No need to teach me something you have learned from me...


Silver is 'metallic white' just as gold is 'metallic yellow'. Only a name, not even official.  If you go to buy a car, these names have very different meanings.

True, "Metallic White" is a commercial name I found in a modern paint catalog.  But, among many paints called "silver", "aluminum" etc., chip of this paint was the closest to the real AII Al.  Name is descriptive and it stresses the fact that in some light conditions paint does look white.  That is why I like this name.  It doesn't have anything to do with white pigments.

I have no idea what pigments that particular paint manufacturer uses for "Metallic White".  You have no clue what pigments are in Humbrol's, Gunze's, etc silver paints and whether those paints are technologically same as AII Al and AE-8.  What matters is how modern paints look when applied and how similar they are to the original Soviet era silver paints.


"Silver" is also quite general category in modellers world because there are dozens of different paints that are called "silver".  There are also "aluminium", "natural metal finish" etc. which are basically same as "silver" category.  This is confusing, I only hoped that "Metallic White" sounds more specific.  

Regards,
KL    
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 08:05:54 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #89 on: November 26, 2014, 08:51:51 PM »

- this plane was in the training/school unit, not in combat one,
- was that training school only for Il-2 or also for fighters (this could determine available paints)?
- color palette in VVS was quite limited,
- paints available on the local stocks were quite limited, sometimes even in PARMs, often resulting in improvisation during repairs.
- supplies for training units had lower priority than for combat units,
- AMT paints had very poor durability when applied directly on A-xxm paints.
- white and silver were equivalents for marking, numbers etc., both could be similarly available.

I personally would prefer silver for this kind of decorative painting. Plus to make work fast and simple I would avoid mixing paints.

Could this summary help to determine or exclude paints for this Il-2?

Yes, it helps.  Every idea and every colorized photo helps.  Smiley

I would summarize results of the analysis of new photos and the discussion we had in last few days as follows:

-  canopy and wing root band are not red, their colour is lighter than fuselage red star
-  canopy and wing root band are most likely matt (thanks Massimo!)
-  fuselage top and sides are very light and most likely matt
-  fuselage underside is even lighter than its sides and possibly glossy
-  engine cowling, canopy railings and wing leading edges are visibly glossy
-  there are two reds on "Kremlin Stars" - same two reds can be identified as colours used to decorate wing leading edges, engine cowling and canopy railings
-  Silver "metallic white" and glossy white are both options for wing top, spinner and nacelle tips.  Photos are so poor that it isn't possible to determine which paint was there.
-  only standard external aviation paints available in 1943/44 should be used for interpretation, no mixed paints
-  number of paints/colours used in interpretation should be kept as low as possible

Starting from these propositions it is easy to reconstruct Stepanyan's Il-2 !!!
HTH,
KL     
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