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Print Page - FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references

Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Painting standards during the GPW => Topic started by: Seawinder on October 20, 2011, 05:17:32 AM



Title: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on October 20, 2011, 05:17:32 AM
I personally find FS references helpful for getting some idea of what various colors looked like. Nobody, it seems, has posited a reliable FS approximation for AII Green (I discount the reference given in SAFFC). Would it be possible for someone to do so, or at least to offer a qualitative comparison of that color and AMT-4? I should also like to know the significance of the two FS references for AMT-4 (24102 & 24151) given in Massimo's color chart (among others). Fresh vs. faded? Or is the actual shade somewhere in between?

Thanks!
Pip Moss


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: learstang on October 20, 2011, 05:23:18 AM
Good question, Pip!  That's one I've been still struggling with for some time.  I've never been satisfied with what I've chosen for AMT-4 - Testors Model Master Green, as it seems too light for me.  If someone could come up with a better Model Master equivalent, I'd be eternally grateful (I prefer Testors over Humbrol, Vallejo, Mr. Color, etc. because they are enamel and I can find them easily).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on October 20, 2011, 07:11:31 AM
Hi Pip,
IMHO, there isn't a simple answer on your question (two magic 5-digit numbers for AII Z and AMT-4).

Problem is that FS really can not address differences between two paints:

-  AII Z was glossy, slightly darker olive green. AII Z was decodable - on b/w photos it was usually darker then grass and foliage
-  AMT-4 was matt, brighter olive green.  It was nondecodable - on b/w photos it blended better with grass and foliage


If you have in your collection a 1942 Yak and 1940 I-16 you would have to exaggerate the difference between two olive greens.  I-16 should be darker and glossy, Yak should be matt and brighter.  Difference between the real paints was very subtle.

Problem No. 2 is the vast amount of information on the internet, most of it impossible to prove.  Massimo quoted two FS values (IMHO, from Orlov and Vahlamov and from Hornat???), but there are many many, more just to add to the confusion.

If I were you, I would forget all those theories about "New" and "Old".  There are many tales how Soviet paints faded within weeks, peeled off within months etc.  That is not what we can see on period photos.  Plus, there are many cases when paints have survived half a century or more.  Anyway, ?faded?, ?old?, etc are only guesses by different authors.  For weathering and aging (during the service, not after 50 years) use your modeling skills and artistic license; don?t go with what Pilawskii say.

Try to understand what these colours were and you will not need FS equivalents.

Hope this helps (a little).
KL



Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 20, 2011, 02:19:04 PM
Hi Pip,
to avoid that someone else gives wrong interpretations on what I have written, I'll clarify that both FS 24102 and 24151 are given by Vaklamov and Orlov on their article on M-Hobby 2/99, pag.23. For what I have understood, it's the result of their comparison with the chip of AMT-4 of the alboom nakrasok, that is not perfectly identical to any of the fs  colors.
About the fading: veterans said that the color turned to yellowish with fading. After 70 years, the pieces have turned to a relatively bright green, the color of the chromium oxyde, the most permanents of the pigments utilized.

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
don?t go with what Pilawskii or Massimo say.
After you have repeated so many times about the incompetence of Pilawskii, this comparison sounds very offensive.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on October 20, 2011, 05:32:27 PM
Hi Massimo,
Sorry, I had no intention to offend you. 

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: John Thompson on October 20, 2011, 06:51:03 PM
Good question, Pip!  That's one I've been still struggling with for some time.  I've never been satisfied with what I've chosen for AMT-4 - Testors Model Master Green, as it seems too light for me.  If someone could come up with a better Model Master equivalent, I'd be eternally grateful (I prefer Testors over Humbrol, Vallejo, Mr. Color, etc. because they are enamel and I can find them easily).

Regards,

Jason

Try these:
AMT-4: MM 1713 Medium Green FS34102
AIIz: MM 1710 Dark Green FS34079

Note that there is more than one Model Master "Dark Green" - MM 1764 is also called Dark Green, but it's got less brown and more blue in it, and is supposed to be matched to FS34092.

Thanks for the comparison between AIIz and AMT-4, Konstantin - very helpful!

John


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on October 20, 2011, 07:15:26 PM
Thanks, Konstantin and Massimo, for the replies. Hi Jason: I also am not satisfied with Model Master 34102 Medium Green as an approximation of AMT-4. It compares rather poorly with Akan (acrylic) AMT-4, which is somewhat darker, but mainly has more yellow -- seems similar to a shade in the Polly Scale line called German Dark Olive, IIRC.

The Eduard I-16 kit gives Mr. Color (not enamel, but solvent based and great stuff) no. 136 for the green, which apparently is supposed to be AII z. I'm going to take a trip to my LHS, get some, and browse other possible greens in the Model Master line. For my part, if I can find an easy mix of a couple of shades that gets close, I'll take that route.

Pip Moss


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 20, 2011, 07:29:48 PM
Hi Konstantin,
never mind, it's all right.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on October 21, 2011, 08:32:54 AM
Hi Pip,

According to Vahlamov and Orlov,  FS 34095 is  equivalent of AII Z (Green) , with a note that AII Z was slightly darker and glossy.
Following is Mig-3 wing preserved in Finland, painted in AII Z  

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/AIIZFS3095Mig-3Finland.jpg)


IMHO, Vahlamov and Orlov meant that the actual shade of AMT-4 was somewhere in between FS 24102 & FS 24151
Following is Lagg-3 fuselage from Finland with preserved AMT-4

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/AMT-4FS24151-24102Lagg-3Finland.jpg)

Hope it is clear now.  8)
KL


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on October 21, 2011, 04:37:38 PM
According to Vahlamov and Orlov,  FS 3095 is  equivalent of AII Z (Green) , with a note that AII Z was slightly darker and glossy.

IMHO, Vahlamov and Orlov meant that the actual shade of AMT-4 was somewhere in between FS 24102 & FS 24151

KL

Hi Konstantin. That's just brilliant. Many thanks for posting the references and the pics.

Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on October 23, 2011, 10:54:14 PM
Hi Pip,

According to Vahlamov and Orlov,  FS 3095 is  equivalent of AII Z (Green) , with a note that AII Z was slightly darker and glossy.
Following is Mig-3 wing preserved in Finland, painted in AII Z  

IMHO, Vahlamov and Orlov meant that the actual shade of AMT-4 was somewhere in between FS 24102 & FS 24151
Following is Lagg-3 fuselage from Finland with preserved AMT-4

Hope it is clear now.  8)
KL

Hi again, Konstantin.
One question: what is the digital source of the FS samples you supplied with the two photographs? Am I right in assuming they're not photographs of actual paint chips?

Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on October 23, 2011, 11:25:33 PM
what is the digital source of the FS samples you supplied with the two photographs? Am I right in assuming they're not photographs of actual paint chips?

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=34095

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=24151+24102

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=24151+24102+34095

Correction: FS aproximation for AII Green is FS 34095


Title: Re: FS aproximations: AMT-4 with enamels
Post by: Seawinder on October 24, 2011, 06:11:19 AM
I've just finished some trial mixes in an attempt to get an acceptable AMT-4 using Model Master enamels. All the mixes I tried used Interior Green 34151 as one of the elements. Other elements included Dark Green 34079, Medium Field Green 34095, and Medium Green 34102. Comparisons were made with my copy of FS 595B with the three-column pages of small paint chips.

First off, IMHO, none of the paints straight up is a very good match for its FS reference. 34079 is too light and too green; 34095 is too light (closer to 34097); 34102 is too green (also closest to 34097); and 34151 is too bright and not olive enough.

Second, my goal was a shade somewhere between 34102 and 34151 (I know the actual AMT-4 had a bit more sheen -- more like a 2xxxx -- but of course all the MM paints are flat). I figured it would also want to be a bit yellower than 34102 and a bit greener than 34151.

Third, I wanted simple mix ratios using just two colors. I'm not into the 22-to-8-to-6-to-2 sorts of things.

OK, here's what I found:

Mix 1: 34102 and 34151 1-to-1: a bit greener and a bit lighter than 34102; darker and greener than 34151
Mix 2: 34095 and 34151 1-to-1: very similar to Mix 1, but still greener; quite close to 34097
Mix 3: 34079 and 34151 1-to-1: very close to 34102 but a tad brighter and greener; darker and greener than 34151
Mix 4: 34079 and 34151 2-to-3: a bit lighter and yellower than 34102; greener and a bit darker than 34151

Of the four, I like Mix 4 the best. It's not too green or too yellow, and it definitely seems like a middle ground between 34102 and 34151.

I also want to mention a couple of Mr. Color shades I tried. Their No. 136 Russian Green 2 looks like a good match for AIIz -- to my eyes the right hue but perhaps a tad light -- and their No. 126 Mitsubishi Interior Green is IMHO quite a good choice for AMT-4. It's similar to my Mix 4, but has a slightly more olive green hue, close to 34151 but slightly darker.

Hope any of this is helpful.

Pip Moss



Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: learstang on October 24, 2011, 06:34:03 AM
It's very helpful, Pip!  Thank you!  Could you post some photographs of your results?  That would be very helpful, indeed.  I'm getting ready to order some MM greens I haven't tried yet.  One paint I definitely am going to get (I know I've used it in the past, but I can't seem to find it now) is Interior Green.  I'll let you know how my tests come out.  I still haven't given up hope on finding a reasonable equivalent to AMT-4 straight out the bottle.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on October 24, 2011, 07:28:51 AM
It's very helpful, Pip!  Thank you!  Could you post some photographs of your results?  That would be very helpful, indeed.  I'm getting ready to order some MM greens I haven't tried yet.  One paint I definitely am going to get (I know I've used it in the past, but I can't seem to find it now) is Interior Green.  I'll let you know how my tests come out.  I still haven't given up hope on finding a reasonable equivalent to AMT-4 straight out the bottle.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason.

I'll try to get some photos, but it may take a couple of days or so. I don't think you're going to find any one Model Master paint that works well straight up.

Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: learstang on October 24, 2011, 08:14:23 AM
You never know.  I found a reasonable equivalent to AMT-1 in an armour colour - Afrika Dunkelgrau '42.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on October 25, 2011, 09:44:18 PM
Here's my best attempt at some photographic documentation. The picture is a composite created in PhotoShop from 5 digital photos. Each photo contains the FS 595B color chips for 34102 and 34151 plus a paint chip of the color mix. Color mix paint chips were sprayed on card stock and cut out. Lighting is florescent; I mounted the camera on a tripod to keep the angles and distances constant. I used manual exposure with a long enough setting to give a decent white for the background paper (visually judged). Still, bear in mind that the shades achieved are valid for comparison only. I wouldn't know how to go about taking a photometrically accurate picture of an FS chip.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Miscellaneous/i-t6k8S7W/0/1a75bdcb/XL/Compare%202-XL.jpg)

Based on this go-round, I think I've changed my opinions. I think the best looking mixes are 35079 plus 34151 1-to-2, and 34095 plus 34151 1-to-1.

Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: learstang on October 25, 2011, 10:21:05 PM
Thank you, Pip!  Great work there!  I've just ordered some more Greens from Testors so I'll report on my experiments when I receive them.  One of them is the Italian Olive Green I see you have.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on October 25, 2011, 11:44:57 PM
You're welcome. Hope it helps. I must say, as I look at the pics, all the actual paint samples are a bit more yellowish, which is probably better.

Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on November 06, 2011, 11:53:54 PM
FWIW, here's a photo of what I think is a good non-acrylic approximation of AMT-4: Mr. Color No. 126. I mentioned this shade in an earlier post; it's labeled as an interior color for Japanese aircraft. It's close in hue but just slightly lighter and yellower than the FS chip for 34102: it's just a bit greener and darker than the chip for 34151. I prepared the photo by doing a mock camouflage application with Testors Black. I then applied Mr. Color clear gloss followed by Mr. Color Semi-Gloss. I think the combination is quite convincing, and it's what I plan to use when I get around to my Yak-1 and La-5.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Miscellaneous/i-SSGFNnP/0/96ee0093/L/MrColor126-L.jpg)

HTH.
Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: learstang on November 07, 2011, 12:47:47 AM
I must say that looks quite nice, Pip, thank you for the photograph!  I received my paints and did do my test by brushing them onto some sheet plastic, and the paints came out a little too dark, so I thought maybe I should spray them onto a Light Ghost Gray primer, as I do when I build my models, but I never did get around to testing that out.  To make a long story short, I think I'm going to use Testors Model Master Interior Green (Testors #1715, FS34151) as my out-of-the-bottle AMT-4.  Probably not as good as your Mr. Color No. 126, but the next black/green model I do I'm going to use it to see how it looks.  I may have to get me that Mr. Color No. 126 though; that does look good!  I'd definitely like to see them on your Yak and La-5 (I happen to be building an La-5 now that I'm going to do in the black/green scheme).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on November 07, 2011, 03:10:16 AM
I must say that looks quite nice, Pip, thank you for the photograph!  I received my paints and did do my test by brushing them onto some sheet plastic, and the paints came out a little too dark, so I thought maybe I should spray them onto a Light Ghost Gray primer, as I do when I build my models, but I never did get around to testing that out.  To make a long story short, I think I'm going to use Testors Model Master Interior Green (Testors #1715, FS34151) as my out-of-the-bottle AMT-4.  Probably not as good as your Mr. Color N. 126, but the next black/green model I do I'm going to use it to see how it looks.  I may have to get me that Mr. Color No. 126 though; that does look good!  I'd definitely like to see them on your Yak and La-5 (I happen to be building an La-5 now that I'm going to do in the black/green scheme).

Hi Jason. I think the Testors 34151 is definitely a good choice (and better than their 34102) if you're going to use something out-of-the-bottle and unmixed. It's also, I think, easy to tweak with a bit of one of the other greens (their 34079 and 34095 in particular) if you want to take it a bit darker/greener. I still recommend the Mr. Color 126, if only to get acquainted with what I think is an excellent line of paints for us fume-sniffers!

Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: mholly on November 07, 2011, 03:38:18 AM
Quote
FWIW, here's a photo of what I think is a good non-acrylic approximation of AMT-4: Mr. Color No. 126. I mentioned this shade in an earlier post; it's labeled as an interior color for Japanese aircraft.
I beg to disagree i.e. that Mr.Color 126 (Mitsubishi Interior Green) is good approximation of AMT-4 (and btw this paint is not very good for "Mitsubishi" interior green either). Reason why I say that is that I tried it myself as an alternative for AIIz (which was, as we know, darker than AMT-4). It looked OK in the bottle, even as a sample on a piece of white plastic but when I painted the whole model it was "not it" in comparison to Akan AIIz. This color is too bright, with too much green chroma and not enough yellow.
Btw your samples in earlier post also show lack of yellow. It may be due to photography and comp.monitors though, I don't know.
Orlov did say however that there are no good matches for VVS colors in FS system (which makes a lot of sense).
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on November 07, 2011, 05:30:13 AM
Quote
FWIW, here's a photo of what I think is a good non-acrylic approximation of AMT-4: Mr. Color No. 126. I mentioned this shade in an earlier post; it's labeled as an interior color for Japanese aircraft.
I beg to disagree i.e. that Mr.Color 126 (Mitsubishi Interior Green) is good approximation of AMT-4 (and btw this paint is not very good for "Mitsubishi" interior green either). Reason why I say that is that I tried it myself as an alternative for AIIz (which was, as we know, darker than AMT-4). It looked OK in the bottle, even as a sample on a piece of white plastic but when I painted the whole model it was "not it" in comparison to Akan AIIz. This color is too bright, with too much green chroma and not enough yellow.
Btw your samples in earlier post also show lack of yellow. It may be due to photography and comp.monitors though, I don't know.
Orlov did say however that there are no good matches for VVS colors in FS system (which makes a lot of sense).
Cheers,
Mario

1. I agree that Mr. Color 126 is too bright for AIIz. IMO Mr. Color 136 is a better approximation (although I'm not saying it's necessarily the best available -- that's another issue AFAIC).
2. There is indeed, to my eye, more yellow in the samples I used for the earlier post, as well as the Mr. Color 126, than what came through in the photographs I posted. You probably will have noticed that the photos of the actual chips were similarly off. I was trying merely to indicate the relative closeness of the various samples to the color chips.
3. As I stated in my post above, comparing Mr. Color 126 to my FS 595B book chips, I find it to be not far away from either 34102 or 34151. Also a small bit yellower than 34102 and a bit greener than 34151. If we go by Mr. Orlov's recommendation of those two references (and also Konstantin's opinion that the "real" AMT-4 is somewhere in between, it's as close as anything I've found, and a lot closer than Akan's acrylic representation, at least in comparison to the two FS chips.
4. It's easy to dismiss FS references, but in the absence of artifacts that we average modelers can observe directly (not through the veil of digital photography and computer monitors), it's really as good a way as any other to get in the ballpark, and I don't hope to do any better than that.
5. (really off topic, but you brought it up) Information found at J-aircraft.com states that Mitsubishi cockpit color was close to U.S. Interior Green (roughly 34151) but a bit darker, which would seem to make the Mr. Color 126 a pretty good representation.

Pip Moss


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: mholly on November 07, 2011, 09:00:14 AM

Quote
As I stated in my post above, comparing Mr. Color 126 to my FS 595B book chips, I find it to be not far away from either 34102 or 34151. Also a small bit yellower than 34102 and a bit greener than 34151. If we go by Mr. Orlov's recommendation of those two references (and also Konstantin's opinion that the "real" AMT-4 is somewhere in between, it's as close as anything I've found, and a lot closer than Akan's acrylic representation, at least in comparison to the two FS chips.
Well it proves again how subjective the visual comparisons are. I compared C126 to FS deck again (to a model painted in it) and find it closer to 34102. 34151 is rather off, lighter, yellower (not "a bit"), just different "character" that's why, going back to it's "Japanese application", I maintain that C126 is not (unfortunately) a very good representation of Mitsubishi built Zero interior color out of the bottle.
Quote
It's easy to dismiss FS references, but in the absence of artifacts that we average modelers can observe directly (not through the veil of digital photography and computer monitors), it's really as good a way as any other to get in the ballpark, and I don't hope to do any better than that.
I'm not dismissing FS, use it frequently, but we should be careful in matching its values to a paint color which was created by specific standards NOT conforming to FS. Orlov and Akanikhin studied TU, mixing formulas, fragments, and etalons of VVS paints (not only "Albom Nakrasok" which is the common misunderstanding). Therefore I trust that Akan AMT-4 is the best "full-scale" hobby paint available. Therefore I was suprised that you were "unimpressed". On the other hand I fully understand one's preference for certain hobby paint brand (mine is Gunze). However better equivalents (in other hobby paint) need to be found. 34151 and around it is not. 34102 is closer but it's not it either. Therefore the proposed interpolation between these two just cann't be the correct path. Btw Orlov himself was not happy at all with quoting these FS swatches. It was "the best he could do at the time" and in the later publication of his work he abandoned any attempts of matching VVS colors to FS.
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 07, 2011, 02:39:57 PM
Hi Mario, Pip and Jason,
Quote
I'm not dismissing FS, use it frequently, but we should be careful in matching its values to a paint color which was created by specific standards NOT conforming to FS. Orlov and Akanikhin studied TU, mixing formulas, fragments, and etalons of VVS paints (not only "Albom Nakrasok" which is the common misunderstanding). Therefore I trust that Akan AMT-4 is the best "full-scale" hobby paint available. Therefore I was suprised that you were "unimpressed". On the other hand I fully understand one's preference for certain hobby paint brand (mine is Gunze). However better equivalents (in other hobby paint) need to be found. 34151 and around it is not. 34102 is closer but it's not it either. Therefore the proposed interpolation between these two just cann't be the correct path. Btw Orlov himself was not happy at all with quoting these FS swatches. It was "the best he could do at the time" and in the later publication of his work he abandoned any attempts of matching VVS colors to FS.

The difficulty to match a non-FS color with the FS catalogue is absolutely true, as well as the 'color depth', that is the fact that two colors could appear identical under a light and different under another light. But the choice of Orlov to remove the FS equivalences from his recent texts is wrong, in my idea. An approximate information is better than no information at all. From the view of a modeler and of an illustrator, it's of scarce interest to know if a paint is called AMT-4 or A-24m if there is not an idea of its look. The scans of colors visualized by the monitors are only indicative. FS catalogue is a resource that can be condivided by distant people, so are much more useful.
Besides, all the chips on which researchers are working are 65 years old. I think that the uncertainty on eventual variations of color are much wider than the difference between 34151 and 34102.
Another thing: let's think to the AII green proposed by Akanihin (replica of a paint found on fabric from a factory) and the color found inside the I-153 of Bourget. I had the impression that they are not identical, and the color found in France is lighter. What is the problem? Misidentification of paints? Alterations during the service? Alteration during the last 65 years? And what is the best strategy, to attain to one as representative of thousands of planes, to mediate between all the exibits, to extrapolate how it could have appeared when new?
The idea to use AKAN paints as a reference is the best available, in absence of better sources, but let's take in consideration that they are not surely identical to the paints of 65 years ago, and in some cases, as the AE-9, could have been misidentified.
Besides I would be sure that the comparison made by a spectrometer, that I suppose made between a dry old sample and fresh acrilic paint, is not altered when acrilic paint dries; my acrilics often darken with drying, and someone wrote that AKAN acrylics appear darker than the equivalent AKAN enamels.
Of course, the research and publication of color comparisons is highly useful for modelers, and it could be good to resume these results in a large table, when sufficient data will be available.  But one should know that all this is an approximation.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on November 07, 2011, 06:39:15 PM
.. a good non-acrylic approximation of AMT-4: Mr. Color No. 126... it's labeled as an interior color for Japanese aircraft. It's close in hue but just slightly lighter and yellower than the FS chip for 34102: it's just a bit greener and darker than the chip for 34151. I prepared the photo by doing a mock camouflage application with Testors Black. I then applied Mr. Color clear gloss followed by Mr. Color Semi-Gloss.

(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/pnmoss/MrColor126.jpg)

IMHO, the hue of your AMT-4 is OK.  :)  At least what I see on my screen...  ;)
Except that it's too glossy for my taste!!!  AMT colours were matt.

to achieve more convincing black-green scheme consider following:
-your black is "too black" and too glossy.  All nitro-cellulose laquers were transparent (85-90% opacity).  there should be 2 coats of green paint, black was usually applied as a single coat.  In that case some (minimal amount!) of the green could be seen through black.
-your overspay is too wide for 1:72

good luck,
KL   


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on November 07, 2011, 07:39:09 PM

IMHO, the hue of your AMT-4 is OK.  :)  At least what I see on my screen...  ;)
Except that it's too glossy for my taste!!!  AMT colours were matt.

to achieve more convincing black-green scheme consider following:
-your black is "too black" and too glossy.  All nitro-cellulose laquers were transparent (85-90% opacity).  there should be 2 coats of green paint, black was usually applied as a single coat.  In that case some (minimal amount!) of the green could be seen through black.
-your overspay is too wide for 1:72

good luck,
KL   


Hi Konstantin. Thanks for your comments. I was laboring under the misconception that the AMT paints were semi-gloss. Thanks for setting me straight on that. I think with a proper flat coat the black would be sufficiently toned down -- it doesn't take much to lighten it significantly. As for the overspray, I just tossed the black on hurriedly to show the contrast with the green. I actually work in 1/48 FWIW.    :)
Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on November 07, 2011, 08:03:23 PM
Hi Mario, Pip and Jason,

The difficulty to match a non-FS color with the FS catalogue is absolutely true ...
Regards
Massimo

Thanks, Massimo, for your as always reasoned reply. Reading it, I realized that I had not been as reasoned or objective in the opinions I had stated about AKAN's AMT-4 in earlier post. Part of my reaction was due to what I found to be its poor covering behavior over bare plastic. This morning I decided to revisit it with a view to comparing it more objectively with the FS paint chips. This time I applied it to a surface that already had some flat gray on it; the AKAN AMT-4 went down much better -- it's behavior was similar to AKAN's AMT-7 which I used successfully on my Il-2 build. In order to make better matches with the surfaces of the FS chips, I applied a clear flat coat over the AKAN AMT-4.

IMO, AKAN's AMT-4 most closely matches FS 34096 although it is a bit yellower. It is a real olive color, which I think means it has some red in it, taking it in a brown direction when compared to purer greens and yellow-greens. It is browner and slightly darker than 34102; it's character is not far from 34151 but it's much darker.

This raises some questions:

How do we explain the apparent discrepancy between AKAN's AMT-4 and the AMT-4 shown in the photograph of the LaGG fuselage posted many places including earlier in this thread, which shows a much purer yellowish green?

If AKAN's AMT-4 is the best extant approximation, why did Vahlamov and Orlov offer 34102 and/or 34151 as FS approximation(s) when there appears IMO to be at least one chip that's closer?

Finally, as a modeler trying to get reasonably close, am I aiming at something in the direction of a light olive drab, a yellow-green, or something in between?

Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 07, 2011, 09:24:01 PM
Hi Konstantin,
Quote
AMT colours were matt.
For what I know, AMT were a bit semigloss when new, while A-x-m were really matt. For example, here http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/1941-43.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/1941-43.html) there are many semigloss planes obviously painted with AMT colors.

Hi Pip,

Quote
This raises some questions:

How do we explain the apparent discrepancy between AKAN's AMT-4 and the AMT-4 shown in the photograph of the LaGG fuselage posted many places including earlier in this thread, which shows a much purer yellowish green?

I suppose that color has become greener with time because the chromium oxyde, green, is a very stable pigment.  However I wouldn't go in the brownish direction, because veterans report that it became yellowish, so if one exaggerates with yellow or green, he can always say that it's a weathered color. It's an opinion, of course.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on November 07, 2011, 09:25:04 PM
This raises some questions:

How do we explain the apparent discrepancy between AKAN's AMT-4 and the AMT-4 shown in the photograph of the LaGG fuselage posted many places including earlier in this thread, which shows a much purer yellowish green?

If AKAN's AMT-4 is the best extant approximation, why did Vahlamov and Orlov offer 34102 and/or 34151 as FS approximation(s) when there appears IMO to be at least one chip that's closer?

Finally, as a modeler trying to get reasonably close, am I aiming at something in the direction of a light olive drab, a yellow-green, or something in between?

Hi Pip,
your questions are almost who is right and who is wrong...  :-X

I would not call it a "discrepancy"; all three of them (Vahlamov, Orlov and Akanihin) had access to the same copy of the Albom.  Vahlamov and Orlov were more interested in history, Akanihin in colours/shades.  Akanihin is not an aviation specialist, more of a general paint expert.

If you are modeling 1941-43 Yak or Lagg, you are aiming at olive (green)!!!  Not drab, not brown - more yellow-green!
hope this helps.  :)
Cheers,
KL
 


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: learstang on November 07, 2011, 10:08:28 PM
According to Mikhail Orlov's book on VVS colours, the AMT dopes were semi-glossy when first applied.  I believe they rapidly became matte with weathering, however.

Regards,

Jason

P.S.  Konstantin, I'll get my translation of Orlov sent to you in few days, at the latest.  I decided to try and "clean" it up a little more.


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on November 08, 2011, 12:04:37 AM
Hi Pip,
your questions are almost who is right and who is wrong...  :-X

Well, yes, I suppose so    :-X

I would not call it a "discrepancy"; all three of them (Vahlamov, Orlov and Akanihin) had access to the same copy of the Albom.  Vahlamov and Orlov were more interested in history, Akanihin in colours/shades.  Akanihin is not an aviation specialist, more of a general paint expert.

I only meant discrepancy in the sense that I'm looking at the photo of the LaGG fuselage on my monitor and comparing it to the painted sample of AKAN AMT-4 in my hand. They look really different: as I said, the AKAN is more olive, the photo more yellow-green, leaning toward green.

If you are modeling 1941-43 Yak or Lagg, you are aiming at olive (green)!!!  Not drab, not brown - more yellow-green!
hope this helps.  :)
Cheers,
KL
 

I shouldn't have used the word "drab," but IMO what makes the color tend toward olive is exactly that amount of added brown-ness caused by the presence of some red in the mix. Simply adding more yellow to green doesn't make it olive IMO, just more yellowish. I don't suppose we know what pigments the Soviets mixed to achieve AMT-4?

As always, thanks for your thoughts and help.

Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on November 08, 2011, 03:05:25 AM
For what I know, AMT were a bit semigloss when new...

Correct, stress is on "a bit"

According to Mikhail Orlov's book on VVS colours, the AMT dopes were semi-glossy when first applied.  I believe they rapidly became matte with weathering, however.

This is taken away from the context!  Orlov did not mean semi-glossy in the sense modern, western paint producers are using word "semi-gloss":

From Wikipedia
Paint and other finishes come in a variety of finish gloss levels, which correspond to different levels of specular reflection.

One manufacturer measures gloss as percentages (at an unspecified angle) and gives:

Flat (1-9% gloss)
Low Sheen (10-25% gloss)
Eggshell (26-40% gloss)
Semi Gloss (41-69% gloss)
Gloss (70-89% gloss)


Semi-gloss defined this way is OK for glossy AII paints!!  Way too reflective for AMT paints.  think of new AMT paints as "low sheen" or "egg shell"

hope this is clear now,
KL







Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 08, 2011, 06:55:52 AM
Hi Jason,
Quote
I'll get my translation of Orlov sent to you in few days, at the latest.  I decided to try and "clean" it up a little more.
Could you send it to me too, please?

Hi Konstantin, hi Pip,
Quote
If you are modeling 1941-43 Yak or Lagg, you are aiming at olive (green)!!!  Not drab, not brown - more yellow-green!
Quote
I shouldn't have used the word "drab," but IMO what makes the color tend toward olive is exactly that amount of added brown-ness caused by the presence of some red in the mix. Simply adding more yellow to green doesn't make it olive IMO, just more yellowish. I don't suppose we know what pigments the Soviets mixed to achieve AMT-4?
I fear that verbal descriptions are inadequate. If the FS catalogue isn't exact enough, how can a verbal description make better of it?


Quote
Flat (1-9% gloss)
Low Sheen (10-25% gloss)
Eggshell (26-40% gloss)
Semi Gloss (41-69% gloss)
Gloss (70-89% gloss)

I don't understand how to interpretate this table. I suggest to have a look to the photos to have an idea of what is the most glossy finish allowed to new paint, then make it more flat in base to the wanted wearing.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on November 08, 2011, 07:55:07 AM
Quote
I suggest to have a look to the photos to have an idea of what is the most glossy finish allowed to new paint, then make it more flat in base to the wanted wearing.

I had an impression that people here realize that "photographic evidence" is not necessarily the ultimate truth.   :(

Amount of glare on photos depends on lighting conditions in the first place.  it depends on the time of day, how cloudy it is etc.  Planes photographed in winter will look different then planes photographed in summer.

Planes could be wet... or frozen...

Some VVS fighters were varnished with clear coat to improve their aerodynamics (all this because AMT paints were matte/flat and increased friction with air)

Some planes on your page could have been painted with old, glossy AII paints.

Why ignoring everything that has been written about AMT colors and rely on b/w photos only?  ???


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 08, 2011, 12:12:58 PM
Hi Konstantin,
for what I know, both the most reliable textual source (Orlov) and the images agree on this point. This is enough for me. Yes, it's possible that a wet surface alters the perception, but the wet ground should be recognizable in the image.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on November 08, 2011, 06:44:03 PM
for what I know, both the most reliable textual source (Orlov) and the images agree on this point. This is enough for me.

Hi Massimo,

one statement taken out of the context + "photographic evidence" = semi-gloss AMT colors

are you kidding, or I am wasting my time on this forum??

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on November 08, 2011, 07:06:32 PM

one statement taken out of the context + "photographic evidence" = semi-gloss AMT colors[/b]

are you kidding, or I am wasting my time on this forum??

Regards,
KL

Hi Konstantin.
Please don't think that way -- I know we all value the knowledge and insights you share.

A couple of posts earlier, you wrote:

'This is taken away from the context!  Orlov did not mean semi-glossy in the sense modern, western paint producers are using word "semi-gloss":'

Can you then clarify what Orlov did mean when he used the term, and/or explain the context in which he used it?

Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: mholly on November 08, 2011, 07:58:43 PM

one statement taken out of the context + "photographic evidence" = semi-gloss AMT colors[/b]

are you kidding, or I am wasting my time on this forum??

Regards,
KL

Hi Konstantin.
Please don't think that way -- I know we all value the knowledge and insights you share.

A couple of posts earlier, you wrote:

'This is taken away from the context!  Orlov did not mean semi-glossy in the sense modern, western paint producers are using word "semi-gloss":'

Can you then clarify what Orlov did mean when he used the term, and/or explain the context in which he used it?

Pip
AMT paints were intended and formulated to be flat, as per VVS HDQ requirements. However they dried with certain sheen, call it semi-flat for a change. It was most probably due to their nitro-cellulose pedigree. A- series enamels did dry flat. We all know that after some time in service the aircraft surface "reflectivity" started to vary due to maintenance, chalking etc. We should probably let this matter go, much more to discuss in terms of colors and patterns.
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on November 08, 2011, 09:38:02 PM
A couple of questions may help to understand difference between AII Green and AMT-4:
Why did VVS insist on paint change in 1940-41?  What was wrong with AII Green and what made AMT-4 better?

Two properties compromised AII Green as an effective camouflage color:
1.   It was decodable (it would stand out against grass and foliage when viewed through certain filters or when photographed with certain types of film)
2.   It was glossy.  Glare/reflection was seen as a de-masking property and a serious problem.  Other major Air forces switched to flat paints even before WWII.

New, non-decodable, flat, camouflage paints were developed by VIAM, i.e. by a team lead by V. Chebotarevski. To make them non-dekodable different pigments than those in AII paints were used.  Flat apearance was achieved by addition of talc powder.
New flat nitrocellulose lacquers were called AMT for Aviatsionie, Matovie, Tkan (Aviation, Flat, (for) Fabric).  Note that flat appearance was considered so important it was included in paint name!
In 1942, VIAM and Chebotarevski won a state prize for their work on new aviation paints.  They probably would not get the prize if new paints were 69% glossy.  ;D

Orlov writes that AMT paints did not achieve 100 % flatness (there was still some reflectivity) when new.  He did use term semi-gloss to describe new AMT paint, probably not knowing how reflective/shinny are modeling semi-gloss coats.

Conclusion:  If you use modern semi-gloss coating you will get sheen typical for earlier AII paints (those were not 100% glossy either).  Your choice?

What will have a priority - historical data or ?photographic evidence? is also a personal choice.

Cheers,
KL      


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: learstang on November 08, 2011, 09:46:23 PM
That's an excellent recap of the differences between the AII and AMT paints, Konstantin - thank you!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Seawinder on November 08, 2011, 11:33:14 PM
That's an excellent recap of the differences between the AII and AMT paints, Konstantin - thank you!

Regards,

Jason

Agreed, Jason. And I wanted to let you and the other fume-sniffers know: I may have found yet another good Model Master approximation for AMT-4: No. 1714 Forest Green 34127. The FS chip is very similar to, but darker than, 34151. In the bottle, the Testors 1714 looks like a dead ringer for the FS 34151 chip. I'll post again at some point after I've had a chance to spray some with black to see how it looks (and this time I won't apply any clear semi-gloss).   :)

Pip


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 09, 2011, 06:43:52 AM

Hi Konstantin,

Quote
are you kidding, or I am wasting my time on this forum??

it's hardly acceptable to receive such an answer after having employed thousands of hours to research and publish informations that people can enjoy for free. I think seriously you should reconsider your way to act.

Massimo


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: mholly on November 09, 2011, 07:41:30 AM

Hi Konstantin,

Quote
are you kidding, or I am wasting my time on this forum??

it's hardly acceptable to receive such an answer after having employed thousands of hours to research and publish informations that people can enjoy for free. I think seriously you should reconsider your way to act.

Massimo
Hi Massimo,
Let's not take these things too personally. You know well that quite many (maybe majority) of the "forumites" are not the native English speakers which includes you, Konstantin and myself for example. Sometimes the message, perfectly clear in the mother tongue, doesn't come out that well in English. Your hard work and amazing enthusiasm is highly appreciated, I'm surely not speaking just for myself. But you need to also accept that there are people out there who spent years (more than a decade) in archives, talking to veterans, examining fragments. Yes, I'm talking about Vakhlamov, Orlov a to a certain point Akanikhin. And THAT is a true research with results that can be, at this point in time and without hesitation, judged as seminal at least. Continued "challenging" of VVS standards and "discovering" new ones based on b&w pictures is NOT a research, with all due respect. There is much more else to do here-some information needs update for example, I wish we were talking MUCH more about modeling and SHOWING our work, that we seek other hobby paint equivalents to VVS standards as Pip Moss is trying (high praise to him for that!), that we "recruit" more active members, especially Russians. I wish Finnish modellers and enthusiast would join us. Just some food for thought.
Ciao,
Mario


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 09, 2011, 09:00:04 AM
Hi Mario,
Quote
Continued "challenging" of VVS standards and "discovering" new ones based on b&w pictures is NOT a research, with all due respect.

I don't agree with this. All the sources of informations have to be utilized, not only written ones. For example, the discovery that many mixed construction planes were painted in aluminium on fabric parts and grey on metallic parts is all due to photos. Yes, there are exhibits in museums showing grey metallic parts and aluminium clothes, but it wasn't obvious that they were from the same planes and this was a standard.
I suppose that the text of Orlov and Vaklamov themselves is widely based on photographs, exhibits and interviews aside of written documents.
The exhibits themselves have their own limits, both due to their age and to their limited number, so the color found on a piece could have been misidentified and erroneously attributed to a vast number of planes. The information can be considered reasonably sure only if all the ways of investigations (textual documents, exhibits, photos, reports) have a good degree of coherence.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: mholly on November 09, 2011, 04:00:38 PM
Hi Massimo,
Quote
All the sources of informations have to be utilized, not only written ones.
I cann't agree more. But analyzing b&w pictures is the least reliable source out of all.
Quote
the discovery that many mixed construction planes were painted in aluminium on fabric parts and grey on metallic parts is all due to photos
I'm not sure what or whose "discovery" are you talking about. V-O wrote about it in 1999.
Quote
I suppose that the text of Orlov and Vaklamov themselves is widely based on photographs, exhibits and interviews aside of written documents
Well, your supposition is not quite correct. Of course they used (and published!) photos , as any other researcher would, but decisive part of research was done from period documents and extant relics. You don't seem to be convinced by their methods and results though.
Mario


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 09, 2011, 06:32:22 PM
Hi Mario,
Quote
I'm not sure what or whose "discovery" are you talking about. V-O wrote about it in 1999.
In which part of the text? I don't remember to have read this there. However their profile on Aviakollectia is of uniform color.
Quote
Well, your supposition is not quite correct. Of course they used (and published!) photos, as any other researcher would, but decisive part of research was done from period documents and extant relics. You don't seem to be convinced by their methods and results though.
I'm not contesting the method of them. I disagree with the dogmatic reading of this work, as of any other work. There are still things to make clear, but if one supposes that all has already been written there, it won't be possible to. Maybe, Orlov himself will extend or correct some parts one day, or maybe he'll explain some things in a convincing way. But why should us only wait without doing anything?  It would be good to contact him to ask if he has already an answer to some things, but not to ignore doubts.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: mholly on November 09, 2011, 08:26:06 PM
Quote
In which part of the text? I don't remember to have read this there. However their profile on Aviakollectia is of uniform color.
Aviakolektsyia page 4 table of paints applied during 1937-40 period.
Same table is on page 26 of the original M-Hobby article just stating TUs in addition.
AE-9 (gray) was an enamel, AII al. (silver) was a nitro-cellulose lacquer. Enamels were applied to metal surfaces, nitro paints to fabric and wood.
These are proven facts directly related to the actual schemes, a/c types etc. This has been discussed here hundreds of times but I'm afraid that confusion persists. Color profiles are artistic expressions, have nothing to do with color science and aviation history. Besides V-O didn't create them.
Quote
I disagree with the dogmatic reading of this work, as of any other work. There are still things to make clear, but if one supposes that all has already been written there, it won't be possible to. Maybe, Orlov himself will extend or correct some parts one day, or maybe he'll explain some things in a convincing way. But why should us only wait without doing anything?  It would be good to contact him to ask if he has already an answer to some things, but not to ignore doubts.
I don't quite recognize "dogmatic reading". To me it's either reading, understanding and accepting (fully or to a certain degree) or reading and not understanding. "Things to make clear", "explain some things", "answer some things"... But which ones Massimo? You need to be specific. What's stopping you to log-in on scalemodels.ru and ask Orlov? I did have my doubts and did just that (asked him) and he replied satisfactorily. How could he ignore doubts if he doesn't even know they, and what kind, exist?
Btw as far as I know Orlov din't say that his work is definite and no more research is necessary. On the contrary. I agree, why should we wait? We are all free to do our own research then. But research, not a guess work! We've had more than enough of it from Mr.P. I for one would love to research but have no conditions for it. Until new information surfaces, either from Orlov or some other researcher, I trust, respect and am grateful for what has been published by V-O.
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: KL on November 09, 2011, 10:30:41 PM
Quote
I'm not sure what or whose "discovery" are you talking about. V-O wrote about it in 1999.
In which part of the text? I don't remember to have read this there.

Use of silver and gray in late 1930es, spec on undersides, was described in M-Hobby 09-1997 - 14 years ago, probably for the first time.  IMHO, "Discovery rights/credits" should go to V&O.

Few of us trying to figure out VVS colours are limited in many ways:  there is language barier, we are all far from archives, museums and wrecks, there is a general leck of information (+ there is a lot of misinformation) in English language literature.  The only way for us to move forward is to cooperate.  Statements like
Quote
for what I know, both the most reliable textual source (Orlov) and the images agree on this point. This is enough for me.
will not help us to work together.

Your preference is "photographic record".  that's OK, but you have to accept limitations of that method - for example, you can not tell colours from b/w photos, even determining how shiny was the paint is problematic.

Quote
Continued "challenging" of VVS standards and "discovering" new ones based on b&w pictures
well said, I also see this as a problem.  :)
  
Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 10, 2011, 04:01:18 PM

Quote
Aviakolektsyia page 4 table of paints applied during 1937-40 period.
Same table is on page 26 of the original M-Hobby article just stating TUs in addition.
AE-9 (gray) was an enamel, AII al. (silver) was a nitro-cellulose lacquer. Enamels were applied to metal surfaces, nitro paints to fabric and wood.
These are proven facts directly related to the actual schemes, a/c types etc. This has been discussed here hundreds of times but I'm afraid that confusion persists
I've the automatic translation of those tables. The translation  of the whole text of Aviakollectsia is still deplorably rough because someone promised to correct it years ago, but didn't.
Quote
Sv.ser. (svetlo seryi) Light gray Around 1937 Nitro-lacquers
AE-9 Light gray Around 1937 Enamels
AE-8 Silver 1938-1939 Enamels
So, this says that there were both nitro and oil light grey, and, I would add, both oil and nitro aluminium. If you add that nitro paints can be used both on fabric and on primed metallic surfaces, this led to the conclusion that planes could well have been of solid color, both grey and silver.
The first drawing of an I-153 with fabric surfaces in silver and metallic surfaces in grey was published, I think, on Scalemodels.ru not too much time ago; for what I know, none wrote that the same thing was valid for R-10, UT-1 and 2.
The discussion from which emerged that this was valid for the undersurfaces of planes with solid green uppersurfaces as I-15bis and many I-16 was made, for what I know, on this forum, and based only on photo. For what I know, all previous written sources write only about silver or only about grey, not about the use of both on the same plane. If I'm wrong, please find any of them.


Quote
What's stopping you to log-in on scalemodels.ru and ask Orlov? I did have my doubts and did just that (asked him) and he replied satisfactorily. How could he ignore doubts if he doesn't even know they, and what kind, exist?
You certainly know that I don't write Russian and he doesn't write English.


Quote
To me it's either reading, understanding and accepting (fully or to a certain degree) or reading and not understanding.

So, one that citicizes an assumption is one that don't understand.

Quote
But research, not a guess work! We've had more than enough of it from Mr.P. I for one would love to research but have no conditions for it. Until new information surfaces, either from Orlov or some other researcher, I trust, respect and am grateful for what has been published by V-O.
I esteem Vaklamov, Orlov and all those that made researches publishing their sources and conclusions. It's different for those that want to discourage researches.


Quote
Your preference is "photographic record".  that's OK, but you have to accept limitations of that method - for example, you can not tell colours from b/w photos, even determining how shiny was the paint is problematic.
all sources have their advantages and limitations.
Photos are limited for a quantity of factors: being in b/w, uncertainties on the film and filter, etc. But are available in quantity and allow crossed comparisons. Besides, they represent real planes, not planes as they should have been.
Documents are important  as standards sources. But they represent aircraft as they should have been. I's not sure that they were applicable to all situations. Besides, it's not sure that there is any document following to the known ones saying different things.
Specimen and wrecks are important, but it's not clear how they were altered by time. Besides, in some cases they are unique and don't allow cross-comparations. Some reconstructions of a color are based on one specimen that could have been misidentified. I know that one does what he can do, but they can't be considered sure. Besides, there are specimen that show unexpected colors.
Reports of veterans are easily imprecise... but how can be we sure? They have seen and flown things of which we have only seen photos and drawings.

The comparison of all souces raises many doubts that should be the starting point for some attempts of investigations. Denying it will prevent from clarifyig them.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: John Thompson on November 10, 2011, 04:36:52 PM
Guys, come on - let's get back to real research instead of arguing about details which I think basically you all really agree on. This is a great forum and web site, one of the best if not THE best, and personally (and for whatever little my opinion may be worth) I value the efforts of all of you. I hope no one is offended, but this back-and-forth bickering is embarrassing, and needs to stop.

Regards to all,
John


Title: Re: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references
Post by: learstang on November 10, 2011, 06:38:48 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head, John!  This does seem to have degenerated into a discussion of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (answer - 87).  Instead of slagging each others' research methods and opinions, let's see photographs, drawings, colour chips, translated excerpts of Orlov's (and Vakhlamov's) works, etc.  We're not talking about the meaning of life, folks, we're just talking about colours.

Regards,

Jason