Sovietwarplanes

Hi,
I started work on DB-3 profile. It should be this plane:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1292572)
More at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db-11story.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db-11story.htm)

At this photo:
(http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/db3-il4/tapanidb3/15a.jpg)
it looks like prop. spinner and propably also front ring at engine cowling are not painted in silver.

Here http://www.xliby.ru/transport_i_aviacija/istorija_aviacii_2001_02/p3.php (http://www.xliby.ru/transport_i_aviacija/istorija_aviacii_2001_02/p3.php) they write (in Russian) that plane on photo above belonged to 53 dbap.
This is "usual" profile of the another DB-3 from 53 dbap, airport Puskin, December 1939-January 1941:
(http://www.xliby.ru/transport_i_aviacija/istorija_aviacii_2001_02/pic_7.jpg)

On the first photo of " Red 15" above all red stars are overpainted, but trimer on the rudder is same dark as the fuselage band:

"Red 3" - red is almost black on the bw photo:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapanidb3/sarvan1.jpg)

"Red 12" - red is almost black on the bw photo:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapanidb3/12tail.jpg)

So questions are:
- fuselage band was black or red?
- spinner is yellow or originally red and now overpained silver?
- front ring of the engine cowling is different metal or yellow...?

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,

I guess that the band was black and the trim tabs red.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapanidb3/15b.jpg)

I suppose that the engine rings, and perhaps the wing leading edge, were repainted grey AE-9 because of their wearing. The prop blades were aluminium with part of the back black, worn on the tips. About the spinner, I think that it was silver or light grey.

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you for reply. It was probably as you wrote. So no yellow but light grey spinner, same as front ring on the cowling. Black fuselage band and red trims on the tail.
Here is ready vector picture:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1293059)
Now I am going to pain" it, make shadows, reflections etc. I am curious how silver finish will turn out. As I remember coloring Il-2 it was really challengng.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I think that metallic surfaces are characterized by their reflections on shadowed surfaces too, besides the outlines should be scarcely reflective even if in full light. Perhaps, adding noise could help to improve the metallic look.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

I "fight" with "serebrjanka" surface now.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
the upper part looks good, I would add some reflections from the ground on the lower part. Usually they show a yellowish shade instead of the white-blue shades of the upper surfaces.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

thank you for comment. Serbrajanka is basicaly matt (although refflective), it is not like a chrome. So I did not put there apparent ground reflections, I put there more different shadows and light reflections.
EDIT - WIP deleted.
Next one is DB-3F.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
looks good, only the part of the fuselage around the star looks to have flat sides. If I remember well, the section was oval. So, some ghange in shade in this area could improve the effect.
The engine cowlings are not distinguishable from the fuselage, but they should be grey. I suggest to mke them more uniform and now with a dark part on their upper profile. Besides the light spot should be extended to all the length of the cylindrical part, now it seems stronger on the first half.
I would also make a light reflection line on the fillet of the fin, covering the upper part of the dark one.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you for comments. I corrected the profile according to your remarks. Different color is the spinner and only a front part of the cowings.

EDIT: WIP deleted, see next posts in this thread.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi all,

There are quite many hi-quality pictures of this plane in Finnish publications in addition to those on Massimo's page. Just to name two: Keskinen - Stenman Venäläiset pommittajat/Soviet Bombers and Geuast Red Stars vol 7. Based on them I engine nacelles and spinners are silver as they have similar shine than rest of the airframe.

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi AC,
do these photos show the plane before the application of the Finnish marks? 
I have photos where the plane is all silver, but with Finnish marks. It could have been completely repainted.
Anyway, I am sure that the plane was built with silver cowlings and was so when it entered service, then the grey repainting could have been made simply for maintenance.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

Yes they are. I was also thinking about complete over painting for Finnish livery as it looks too uniform for only partial fixing.

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi,
at these photos, here still with red star on the underwing:
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/db3/db3-5.jpg)
and here with red star already overpainted:
(http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/db3-il4/tapanidb3/15a.jpg)
spinner and front part of the cowling have apparently other shade of grey and level of reflection than rest of the cowling.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,

There is a type picture walk around of the ex-15 taken at VL Tampere factory. Maybe close to ten pictures with a close up from engines and nose. Your top picture is one of them. The red star is retouched to your image. They are taken in better lightning than the second one with a Fokker D.XXI on the background.

Another copy of the first one: http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-5709103 Also a story how it was captured.

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi Misos,
your profile looks too gray, to me it looks like really convincing AE-9.
"Serebryanka" is not mirror-like reflective, but it is more reflective than white, and much more reflective than light gray.

(https://vitex.in.ua/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/vitex-silver3.jpg)


Serebryanka is not matt. I would say it's "semi-gloss", especially for the scale of your drawings. Check here for names for different sheen values: there are several grades between high glossy and matt.

(http://diyhomepainter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/GlossLevels2_Max.jpg)

Hi KL,
thank you for comment. So I would correct my statement - serebrjanka at the photos of this particular plane looks matt. I do not know reason - wathering, icing, light conditions...?
I remember very well discussions about serebrjanka at P-39 thread http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14700#msg14700 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14700#msg14700) and winter Il-2 thread http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1799.msg15562#msg15562 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1799.msg15562#msg15562)
Anyhow, I showed that profile to several people with no knowledge about VVS colors - all of them said that plane is silver/aluminium.

EDIT: I played a bit with shadows and reflections etc. So IMHO is OK, or at least better now (although there is always area for improvement) ;)
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1294278)

Now I have to move on.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,

here is work in progress (vector picture) of DB-3F:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1294170)

There is not many photos of DB-3F, I have found some at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/db3-il4.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/db3-il4.htm), so it will be this one:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1294302)

- little red star seems to be above the number 10 on the rudder,
- on theright side of the read fuselage (bottom photo) seems to circular repainting in the dark (black) field,
- interesting sharp-border very dark repainting basically at the same place but on the left side of the fuselage (upper photo).

Regards,
   66misos

Hi,

EDIT: see the final picture below.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
in my idea, the blotches should be more rounded and blurried, a typical (bad) airbrush work.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
you are probably right. Moreover, I doubt about overpanted red star on the rudder. Is it clearly visible on the right side, plus on the left side is also visible something like star. Only rudder is turned a bit to the left so there is a shadow resulting in the very low contrast among red, green a black colors.
Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
I wonder if the repainting is more complex and includes two shades, maybe a dark green and a black over the original green. The dark green could have been utilized to hide stars and to make large blotches, the black for smaller blotches inside them.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
here is final profile of DB-3F. Blotches are corrected, star is visible - see my post abobe. I decided for "standard" approach, e.g. black over green:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1294536)

Now, Il-4 will follow.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
good work.
About the Il-4, will you draw the controversial late version with arrow wings too?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you :)
Next one - Il-4 should be some relatively well documented tri-color camouflage according to (or at least close to) the NKAP 1943 scheme, probably "White 26" http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapani/26.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapani/26.htm) or "White 72" http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapani/72.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapani/72.htm) or something similiar.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
here it is - still vector Il-4:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1295112&mode=view)

It should be this plane:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapani/72test.jpg)

Seems it nicely follows NKAP 1943 scheme no. 2 for Il-2:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-bombers/tem-il4-43-br.jpg)

Question is - what is tail number? 75 or 72?

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I don't think that this number is 75. Eventually, there could easily be another plane 75 in the unit.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you for reply, so it will be 72. I wonder whether front part of the prop. spinner is the same color as tail cap (blue?), or the whole spinner is standard green (see NKAP 1943) and dark rear part is only due to rotating propeller blades. ???
Regards,
   66misos

Hi, collegues, maybe this shots from my latest work will be useful. 3D models made with original factory data.

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/244154/62938661.18/0_f5529_d7883f84_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/212693/view/1004841) (https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/49312/62938661.18/0_f552a_1242819c_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/212693/view/1004842)

The shapes accurate far more than any published drawings you can find, so that they completely coincide with the photographs  ;D

Here ingame engine shots http://psy06.deviantart.com/

Hi Psy,
great 3d models!
That camo pattern of the DB-3B is typical of Finnish planes.
Have you made the 3d model of the arrow wing version?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
please note that the spinner is on shadow, so it has to be more light that what the photo shows.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Psy06,
as said great 3D models! I saw your work on deviantart page. Why have both planes grey underside? I would expect light blue.

Hi Massimo,
yes, spinner is in the shadow. But green on the direct sun (top fuselage) is also significantly lighter. Camo quite well follows NKAP 1943 scheme and according to it the left spinner (e.g. that on the photo) should be green.
Yes, could be repainted when undersides were painted black, who knows. Then lighter (blue?) front part as kind of unit marking could be OK.
So basically there are 3 options for spinner colors:
- all is green (darker rear part is only optical efect due to rotating blades),
- front part is blue and rear part is green (darker due to rotating blades),
- front part is blue and rear part is black.
Regards,
   66misos

1. Well, camo builded by period walkaround, and plane has stars.

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/46400/62938661.18/0_f552e_788a62b9_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/212693/view/1004846)

2. No :(

Hi 66misos, actually, on 3d models DB-3 the bottom surfaces are matt silver.

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/197102/62938661.18/0_f552d_9f4fee93_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/212693/view/1004845)

1.Blue surfaces, actually very rare thing, then it could only be on only a very, very small number of Komsomolsk-on-Amur machines (that in fact is very much in question). All of this is associated with the fact, that all versions of DB-3 have been replaced in the serial production of DB-3F before the introduction of green-blue painting sheme. DB-3 all were silvery, and according to the famous order of 1941 years, when applying new camouflage, the lower surfaces were not repainted. DB-3F of the first series were also silvery.

This is typical 39-40 period planes -
(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/94596/62938661.18/0_f5530_d8d4ffd_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/212693/view/1004848) (https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/195195/62938661.18/0_f552f_287853ab_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/212693/view/1004847)

2. Blue surfaces could appear on machines that had undergone in factory major overhaul, according to the regulations it was supposed to completely repaint. Apparently this can be explained by DB-3 in the 1943 paint sheme, which I already showed here on the site. I do not have statistics on major overhauls, but there are pictures of 44 45 years where DB3's has never been repainted after 41,from which we can conclude (cautiously) that repainting the entire airframe was a rather rare case.

Hi Psy,
I see, but it is still a Finnish camouflage. One could research if the stars were really painted on the plane, or directly on photos.

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db-11story.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db-11story.htm)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db-13story.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db-13story.htm)

Regards
Massimo

Maybe you right, walkaround seems from Rehlin album.

Hi,

There is a German recognition manual were these pictures were used. Red stars look like retouched to the pictures. At least those pictures were taken before bottom and nacelles of the plane were painted yellow.

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi,
here is my finished Il-4:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1297302)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
great work as usual.
Just'I can't be sure that the third camo color was really black instead of dark grey.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you :).
The photo neither proves nor disproves black or dark grey:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/db3-il4/db3-il4camo/il4f.jpg)

NKAP 1943 prescribes black:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-bombers/tem-il4-43-br.jpg)

So I made it something between - could be either darker dark grey or bleached out/weathered black.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
this looks reasonable.
Just, I would darken the part of the nacelle under the wings.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank for comment, I forgot it. It is already corrected in the picture above.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
here are additional views on the Il-4 "White 72":

(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1311509)

(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1311584)

(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1311508)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
good work. Will you draw four views for all your previous works?
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
at a second look, I think that the stiffeners on the fuselage sides  should be visible on the upper view.
Regards
Massimo

 :o

Hi,
thank you for comments.

Massimo,
you are right, I forgot them. However, some Il-4 had both stiffeners and handles, some of them on handles and others nothing. But mine has them both, at least according to the shadow, so I corrected it and replaced top-view profile in my previous post.

Stiffeners and handles:
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/il4/il4-10.jpg)
(http://top.scalemodels.ru/images/2013/08/1376233925_1345790006_14.jpg)

Only handles:
(http://авиару.рф/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/9.Verhnyaya-strelkovaya-ustanovka-MV-3..jpg)
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2014-06/50-3.jpg)

No stiffeners, no handles:
(https://www.lib.rus.ec/i/77/530077/pic_51.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi 66misos. Handrails were on all Ilyushins, with no exceptions, it are located only on the left side. Stiffeners was only at Il-4 at 1942 production and later. There were no stiffeners on the dB-3F. The last photo of your post is a second prototype of the  DB-3F. The turret photos is a late production DB-3Fs.