Sovietwarplanes

Hi all,
I've updated the LaGG-3 page
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/lagg3.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/lagg3.html)
Apart for some restyling, the main news is the addition of 3 new pages with photos and profiles:

LaGG-3s series 60/70 of 926 IAP
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/georgia/932lprt.jpg)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/georgia/georgia.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/georgia/georgia.html)

LaGG-3 'white 38' series 60/70, probably 129 IAP in 1943 (the unit of Popkov)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/curvedarrow/38arrow-rprt.jpg)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/curvedarrow/curvedarrow.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/curvedarrow/curvedarrow.html)

Lagg-3s series 60-70 of 9 IAP-ChF and other units in 1944
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap-t.jpg)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap.html)

Please, let me know any comments.
Regads
Massimo

Hi,
I've made some updates to the previous pages; the page http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap.html) now includes profiles and photos of planes of other units operating on the Southern front, as 88 iap. Here is one:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/41lpr.jpg)
These updates were made with the help of A. Ruckovsky.

Besides I've uploaded a page with profiles and photos of I-301 prototype.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/i-301/i-301t.jpg)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/i-301/i-301.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/i-301/i-301.htm)

Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I'm working on a page about pre-war LaGG-3s.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/prewar.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/prewar.htm)
Here is one, built in Zavod 31, one of 28 planes with spring 1941 camouflage:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/3shadescamo.jpg)
Another plane of Zavod 31:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/272130fr.jpg)
this was already drawn on Aviakollectsia, the light color being represented as silver, likely enough as it protected the underlying materials against UV rays
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/273130lpr.jpg)
but it is also possible that planes were still in yellow primer/putty
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/273130ylpr.jpg)

Is there any suggestion to decide the thing?

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
very nice picture. However, why do you use "cherry red"? What color exactly it should be? I did not find it at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/color-table.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/color-table.html).
IMHO:
- it should be paint set for planes to have specific properties, standard paint let's say for cars would not be good,
- it was used on prototypes to be well visible during trials on the air and on the ground - standard red (AIIkr or A-13) for me seems to be more practical/probable than relatively dark "cherry red".
- standard red color could look quite dark on the photos, depending on the used film material and filter:
(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/LaGG-3/Lavochkin-LaGG-3/images/Lavochkin-LaGG-3-GvIAP-USSR-1942-01.jpg)
(http://ram-home.com/ram-old/105-2-tomasheinz.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I agree that a standard red could have given the same look with the proper film.
Anyway there are at least two cases where dark reds (different) were found on pieces: one is the 'moskva', sort of DB-3 utilized for a demonstrative flight to USA , that was partially painted red, partially dark red (few bw photos show the difference); another one is the color of the MiG-3 red 1 whose pieces are preserved in Finland.  I've choosen dark red in this case as a guess. Of course, I'm always ready to change it in case that new information should emerge.
Regards
Massimo

Тricolor color was at the plant No. 21 in Gorky

Hi Massimo,
yes, I know about those two examples, but they vere not prototypes during trials.

Here http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/polikarpov/i-17/index.htm (http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/polikarpov/i-17/index.htm) is another example of the standard red surface - prototype Polikarpov I-17:
(http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/polikarpov/i-17/vf_i-17_06.jpg)
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Names_Never/tskb19.jpg)

Yakovlev AIR-7
(http://airspot.ru/catalogue_image/filename/3394/air7-i.jpg)
(http://www.sovplane.ru/foto/air7.jpg)
usual interpretation:
(http://www.spaceavia.ru/big/item_2273.jpg)

Yakovlev AIP-12:
(http://авиару.рф/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/0.AIR-12.jpg)
usual interpetation:
(http://авиару.рф/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/7.AIR-12.-Risunok..jpg)


EDIT:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/3121321f.jpg)
This photo shows that:
- there is a dark surface (color/primer...?) under the light painting at the wing leading edge and under the scratches,
- air intake at the wing root and part of the leading edge looks like painted with glossy/metallic color, while the rest is different darker matt color (exposed primer after final painting was worn-out?),
- light color on the surface does not look very much like metallic Alluminium color, compare reflections&shining to this LaGG-3:
  (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/silver/red46f1r.jpg)
- note the different color of the metal plate on the wing leading edge on the right,
- for primer I would use more ocher shade like here:
  (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/mark-colors/plainstar1.jpg)
I would not be surprised, if it was painted in standard red & yellow color ???

Regards,
    66misos

Hi,
you're right, I have to make some order.

You're right about these prototypes. But, about I-301, there is one more consideration. Some reports describe the plane as finished in VIAM B-3 resin, that was red brown or dark red. Now, photos show that the plane was painted in uniform color on the metallic parts too, and it is unlikely that this glue could be utilized to paint metal; so, it was likely painted with some shade of red or red brown or dark red, that are undistinguishable in photos.
I can suppose that someone could have equivocated his description, if the shade of red was comparable with that of the resin. So i prefer to mantain the dark red shade.


These are interesting observations. I thought that the color of the air intake was unpainted metal. but the drawings don't show a coincidence between the panel lines and the silver area. So it was likely painted on.
Dark parts on the leading edge seem scratches, but could also be some adhering earth. I agree that the remainng part is not shining.
According to informations from Averin, this should be a grey-silver mixed in the factory itself. And another complication: this plane is of Z.21, while the nearly identical but marked plane of the profile is of Z.31. Were them painted in the same way? i think so, but...

Another thing: here are photos of another plane of Z.21, probably built before the three-shaded one; I thought that it was an example of green/blue typical prewar plane, but looking closely at the photo, it seems that it could be camouflaged with something scarcely contrasting.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/z31fa.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/z21fc.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

VIAM B3 was glue to connect wooden material and it could look like this inside of the preserved MiG-3:
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2017/01/1483789086_mig3_4.jpg)
The dark surface on LaGG-3 is metal and looks homogenous, very different from this MiG-3 interior, so the most probable it is painted with some relevat paint for planes. The only question is the color of that paint. And due to the reasons described in my previous post my personal prefference is standard red color. Of course, your prefference can be different.

Lightgrey & silver mix looks like probable, realistic option.

Then it could look like this 1-153 http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2307.msg19947#msg19947 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2307.msg19947#msg19947) with ocher yellow ALG-1 partially visible under the worn-out light(grey) color on some exposed surfaces like wing roots etc.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos, good photo.
Are you sure that the glue employed is the same both for Lavochkins and MiGs? I would understand better what delta-wood is .
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

according to the www.yandex.ru (http://www.yandex.ru) delta-wood (дельта древесина) is plywood sheathing and bakelite ply, it could look like this:

(http://cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/2016/02/12/9/1455290724120373090.jpg)

(http://rubankom.com/wp-content/uploads/bakelitovaya-drevesno-sloistaya-plita-fbs.jpg)

I have comment info at scalemodels.ru: "I-301 is now drawn in nice red wine color. But in those timee they painted it with color close to (dark) brown."

"The prototype of the new I-301 fighter was painted with resin varnish No. 1, which was the same as VIAM B-3 glue, only of a more liquid consistency, and consisted of a phenolphaldehyde resin, acid hardener and ethyl alcohol or acetone. If such a varnish was used without a dye, then it gave a firm coating of red-brown or dark-cherry color. To reduce the resistance, it was polished."


Another nice photo of I-301 (LaGG-1):
(http://chkalov-tm.ru/wa-data/public/blog/img/3_01_1.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
thank you for the images and informations.
For what I see, Viam B-3 hasn't pigment to hide the texture of the wood.I don't think that it could have covered the whole plane, including the metallic parts, in such way.
Of course, the metallic parts could have been painted with red brown primer, but is it possible that the resulting plane was so uniform?

The photo of the plane is very nice, but I don't think that it was a prototype. According to Y.Gordon, that plane could be the first LaGG-3 built in Z.21. I think that this plane had aluminium prop and cowling and yellowish surfaces; I don't think that it was flown in this way. The metallic parts of the landing gear could be primed in yellow zinc chromate.
The yellowish putty appears in photos in different ways.
MiG-3:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/internal-colors-primers/mig3rearfus.jpg)
LaGG-3:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/internal-colors-primers/lagg3skin.jpg)

who knows if it is the same color?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I would say yes, or very similar. Compare also those green colors - simple different photos.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi all,
the page on prewar LaGG-3 was extended; I think it's all for now, unless new informations appear.
Some new profiles, although not too fascinating.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/z21early.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/sh37len3-lpr.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/273159lpr.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/11early.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Great job!

Hi,
I've updated the page on Galchenko's LaGG-3 taking into account the  images found by Misos and the progress in our knowledge of Soviet wartime colors.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko.html)

Some samples:

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko1pl.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko3pl.jpg)

Please, let me know your comments.

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

very nice. However, I have some notes:

1.) Black area just behind propeller is much wider on photos than on your profile and right side of the neiborough green area has different shape:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/Lagg3%20Galchenko%20with%20stars.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galchenko2w.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko1pl.jpg)

2.) Check green area at horiz. stabilizer root on this photo:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/gala-him1.jpg)
It is different from your picture:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko2above.jpg)

3.) brighter oval areas over hinges are bigger than on your profiles:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galacatblr.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko2pl.jpg)

plus rudder trim tab (see arrow) on the right side is brighter than surrounding area:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/trimtab.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko2pr.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Thank you Misos.
Do you think that the lighter parts o the rudder could have been painted  red?
regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I have tendency to make colors on the planes low vis and as simple as possible, especially for planes from that time. Galchenko removed big red stars from his plane. Why would he added something else red on his plane?
I would say it was repainted by some sort of green, or mixture black&ALG-1. It is visible on the several screenshots, so it is not a defect on one particular photo.
However, it is visible only (on the left side) on the winter photo, not on the right side on the summer photos. So it was there problaly only during a short time period and it disappeared when winter camo was overpainted.

May be it would be good to check the sentence of the photos. It is apparent that black and dark green blotches changed their appearance during the time.

Here the lighter area on the horiz. stab reaches only to front edge of the rudder:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenkoallm2r.jpg) (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galacatblr.jpg)

while here it reaches much further and hat different shape:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/gala-him1.jpg)

Regarding the winter camo - two white blotches on the left wing I would move now (especially that bottom one) more to the right, closer to the wing root to align them with the black/green area, not leave them like in my original picture:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko16a.jpg)
more like here:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galchenko2w.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos

Hi all,
I've updated the page on LaGG-3s with a small page on the last LaGGs: I-105 and I-105-2.

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/105/105.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/105/105.html)

Some samples:

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/105/105-1-lpr.jpg)


(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/105/105-2-lpr.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've updated the page on Galchenko again.
I've made small modifications to the camouflage on some drawings.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've made a small page with a profile of the plane of Yegorov.

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/sharkmouth156iap/sharkmouth156iap.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/sharkmouth156iap/sharkmouth156iap.html)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/sharkmouth156iap/sharkmouth-lpr.jpg)

I know that the 12 is based on weak evidence.

Regards
Massimo

Nice work on those Lavochkins, Massimo!

Best Regards,

Jason

The soviet regiments commanders often used "cool" numbers like 1, 01, 100 ...

Hi,
this is possible, but all what the photo shows seems the top of a 12.
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,
here is a plane of the 249 iap/163 giap:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/37of163iap-rpr.jpg)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap.html)
http://ava.org.ru/iap/163g.htm (http://ava.org.ru/iap/163g.htm)
Probably I'll have to revise a profile of La-7 too.

Nice-looking late LaGG-3, Massimo!

Best Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,
it allowed to make some clearness on the markings of La-5 and La-7 too.
regards
Massimo

One more board art - http://ava.org.ru/iap/25m.htm
The font style , the childish painted animal, naval uniform, mountain landscape tell us this is 25th IAP of Black sea fleet.

Hi,
your page has new and interesting photos. The first one has he rarely seen auxiliary drop tank.
The images of animals are interesting, but I've the impressin that they were temporary, the lion looks drawn with chalk and the tiger seems painted wit white on the camouflage color.
Anyway they could turn into interestingprofiles. The planes with the emblems seem camouflaged in grey, perhaps the one with the lion has a black repainting to show better the artwork.
Regards
Massimo

http://ava.org.ru/iap/9m.htm
2 additional photos of LaGG-3 of А.А.Gerasimov shows some details.

Hi, interesting.

(http://ava.org.ru/iap/9m/gerasimov.jpg)
Excellent.

(http://ava.org.ru/iap/9m/lagg3-gerasimov.jpg)
This looks a Yak.

(http://ava.org.ru/iap/9m/3pilots.jpg)
Uncertain on this.

Regards
Massimo

The middle photo has the shaped nose above the intake typical of the LaGG and unlike the Yak.  The canopy matches that in the LaGG in the link above.

The lowest photo lacks the protruding starter pick-up, which may be a feature of a later batch?  The rivet pattern on the cowling appears to be the same as the a/c above, but the wing root intake may be a hint for someone better informed than me.

I see that the plane of the middle photo has panels on the side of the cockpit, a LaGG-3 should be smooth on that area. The straight shape of the rear of landing gear bays seem of a Yak-1, as the exhaust pipes protruding from individual openings of the cowlings. The outlet of the cooler looks of a Yak too.

The last photo has the wheel door as on Yak 7/9.

The first and second photos show a rectangular windscreen, so if they are LaGG-3s, they can only be series 66. The second photo shows a landing gear well shape unlike the LaGG-3 - the shape visible in the photo, plus the lack of the exhaust shroud that would be present on a typical LaGG-3/66, suggests to me that it's a Yak-1, maybe an early Yak-1B.

The aircraft in the third photo is a Yak-9, perhaps a Yak-7, but not a LaGG - the shape of the wing root intake and the presence of the main landing gear inner door (not present on LaGG-3) are key details.

John

Oops - you beat me to it, Massimo!  :D

The upper picture is LaGG-3 tip 66.
The middle one is JAK-1, see the shape of of the landing gear bay, the exhausts...
The lower picture is also JAK (7-9) see the injection slot and the landing gear cover.

Maybe someone will come in handy. This is from my personal photo archive.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SsMPM0P2/111.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kj7s0Pxm/112.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGGPkHM1/113.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sf58frSb/114.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FVkrnY0/115.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQgVDBmg/116.jpg)

I-301 - 2?

yes

Hi, beautiful photos, thank you.
Regards
Massimo

I have more, but they need to be scanned.

Are these two separate incidents?  Despite the similarities, the gun openings for the forward gun are significantly different in length, and the small intake near the bottom of the cowling also differs.  There are different wear marks on the fuselage, different exhaust stains, and different appearance of certain panels, though the last could be explained by the two photos taken at different times and light conditions.

Yes, on one it is unarmed

Very interesting and high quality.
Thanks for sharing!

Excellent photos,  thanks lots for sharing!:)