Sovietwarplanes

Does anyone know anything about this Shturmovik?  It looks to me like it's an early straight-winged two-seater, because of the early-style gunner's canopy and the short radio mast.  It doesn't appear to be in the black-green scheme, so it should be in one of the two "three-colour" schemes.  I'm thinking that the colour on the nose is red, with a white outline.  Does anyone have a guess as to which of the two three-colour patterns it is?

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/IL-2-Arrow-ElabouratePresentationMachineJPEG.jpg)

Just offhand, no, but I truly dig those wide whitewall tires - do I see fuzzy dice hanging from the windscreen?  ;D

John

Hi Jason,
I've already seen photos of Tu-2 and Pe-2s that have a strange light, not-uniform color on a wide part of the plane, and other parts are very dark. I suppose that they could be originally painted with black-green camouflage, roughly adapted, after 1943, with a wide application of AMT-1 light brown without respecting the templates. Note that the canopy struts and the tail of the plane visible on the background are much darker of the sides.
Regards
Massimo

Jason,
text explains that this was a personal plane of 2 x HSU Nelson Stepanyan. Stepanyan was one of the most successful Il-2 pilots of the entire war.  In 1944 he received an Il-2 bought from funds collected in his native Armenia.  This plane had name "Mstitel".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Stepanyan
http://www.win.ru/Mysteries-of-History/3553.phtml
http://video.yandex.ru/users/warta21/view/24/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aXy7OqAfho

IMHO Stepanyan's Il-2 on your photo is one of a kind plane. A personal plane, not a camouflaged plane.  Maybe solid gray???  Maybe solid green???  Wings look different than fuselage and tailplane is definitely darker than fuselage, maybe red??? same with cockpit framing, red???

(http://www.win.ru/files/3553/03.jpg)

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AP/AP09-2/9-3.jpg)

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AP/AP09-2/2-3.jpg)

(http://www.win.ru/files/3553/02.jpg)

Thank you gentlemen for the information!  Nice pictures Konstantin!  John, I don't think it has fuzzy dice, but I'm pretty sure HSU Nelson Stepanyan could jump the aeroplane up and down on the ground like a lowrider car, with Armenian music blasting out of the speakers.

Regards,

Jason

...or maybe "Ride of the Valkyries", if he was on a combat mission!

John

That's not very patriotic!! wasn't Hitler a big fan of Wagner too?   Maybe the 1812 overture would work better.... :)

So gentlemen, can we come to some consensus regarding the topsides colour of this aeroplane?  Green (AMT-4) or Grey (AMT-11)?  I tend towards the green option, although the grey option is more striking.  In terms of the trim, such as the nose and the tail, I tend towards red.  And I think we can all agree it did not have fuzzy dice nor the chrome package, although it definitely did have those spiffy whitewalls.

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/IL-2-Arrow-ElabouratePresentationMachineJPEG.jpg)

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AP/AP09-2/9-3.jpg)

On both photos (green) grass is very dark, darker then red star.  The film that was used was more sensitive to green than on red!!!  ???
My interpretation would be:  ;)

Fuselage upper surface and wing root - mid gray
Cockpit framing - red
Nose and tail trim - dark green or dark blue
Fuselage and wing undersurface - light blue
wing top - light blue
Landing gear pods trimming - dark green or dark blue
Wheels - dark green A-15f, like postwar Soviet planes
 
Dark blue trimming could be assicated to Navy???

 :o Am I turning into Pilawskii?!?! :o

Not to worry, Konstantin, you didn't mention AII Brown or Tractor Green.  Thank you for your interpretation.  It's a very unusual Shturmovik whatever it was painted in.  And I thought "White 24" was strangely painted (another naval IL-2).  Looking at it, it seems that the "red" tail and nose are darker than the red stars, especially in that second photograph, so dark green or dark blue are good guesses.  I assume that the water in the fuselage paintings are in blue, so blue trim would go with these.  I realise B&W analysis is very tricky, but it's all we have to go on this case, unless someone magically unearths the remains of this plane and can do a chemical analysis of the paint.  Or unless I can finally get my time machine up and running.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason, John and Konstantin,
the front image looks to show not uniform color of the wing uppersurfaces. They could have been still camouflaged.
The dark color on the landing gear nacelles is difficult to be followed on the uppersurface of wings.
For the nose and tail, I would go with dark blue, and light grey on fuselage.
Note that the paintings are different on each side.
The red star on the spinner looks to have 6 points.
Regards
Massimo

Good observations, Massimo, thank you!  With everybody's help I may just be able to figure out how this strange bird was painted.  In case you were wondering why I'm so interested in this 'plane, when pointing out to "Mr. Montex" (Darek Korczynski) that the profiles on his mask set for the Hobby Boss single-seater were incorrect, I offered to help him with any new masks for the IL-2.  He wants to do masks for this particular aeroplane, so I'm trying to help him out on it.  I don't think we'll be receiving any residuals from him if he produces it, but it'd still be nice to see some of our research go into the production of an aftermarket item.  By the way, his mask set for the single-seater, although the profiles have inaccuracies, is quite nice, and includes masks to paint "Za Otradnova" (a 'plane with the rear fuselage external metal ribs) and the famous aeroplane of HSU N.A. Zub, "Smert' Fashtikim Okuppantam!".

Regards,

Jason

The front view image is also the poorest quality.  I would take a photo of a model at similar angle and at similar lighting to check how much reflections and shedows there could be.  Or just to check how much of the wing upper surface is visible.

Both side view photos clearly show sharp boundary between fuselage gray and wing top colour.  Check again straight line at both wing roots.
To my eye, wing top is the same colour as fuselage underside and wheel covers, i.e. light blue AMT-7... ???  I know this is an "unusual scheme", but we have agreed that Stepanyan's Il-2 was one of a kind.  ;)

It would be nice if somebody quickly traces/draws this unique Shturmovik.  ::)  I am sure that Stepaniyan's Il was more striking than the two profiles from previous post suggest.
Massimo, how about tracing this plane?

Cheers,
KL  

Hi Konstantin and Jason,
about the photos, I could add that only the front part of the spinner looks grey/silver with star, the rear part is painted with the dark color and a white outline.
About a profile... templates require time, once one has made the templates, each profile requires only little time. A day, maybe, when I'll try to trace profiles of all known shturmoviks...
Regards
Massimo

I for one, Massimo, definitely look forward to that day.

Regards,

Jason

I was wondering what books the photos & profiles came from I would like to get a hold of these if any one can help me with that. Regards: Rodney.

Well I found the book with the right side photo Bagration to Berlin. Any assistance on any other book title would be great.

It may have started with this tread, but :o

(http://www.montex-mask.com/images/1_32/K32197.jpg)

Stepaniyan's Il-2 in 1:32 !!! That's something!

Although my name decorates the sheet ::), I proposed different colours:

I know, Konstantin - I did give him your suggestions.  However, I'm still pleased to have my name up in lights, so to speak.  Look, I'm famous!

Regards,

Jason

This profile looks to be a very good estimate to the lay out of the paint design. A few questions though what year did Stepanyan receive this particular aircraft? Do you not think the wing root radius is not painted a different colour to the rest of the wing?

The previous photos seem to lend some credence that something is going on there? This one I am not sure what aircraft he is near it seems painted very similar to the rest though.


(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/stepanyan.jpg)

Hi all,
yes, but I am not sure if it is red. The red nose should end with a point and a white line, and the color below... who knows?
To tell the truth, I think that something on the painting of the wings of this plane has still to be understood. The front photo posted at the beginning of the thread shows wings that are not of uniform color and with trasversal white stripes, and the red as on the nose looks continuing below the landing gear nacelles.
Regards
Massimo

Wing root is the same color as the mid part of the fuselage, probably midium gray AMT-11.  Wing top is lighter, probably solid "deep sky blue" AMT-7.
Nose and tail are either dark green or dark blue, probably dark green.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/stepanyan.jpg)

Photo is probably from the same 1944 series. Too bad the background is retouched.

Cheers,
KL
 

Hi,
Personally, I don't think that they would use camouflage colors on a bright plane, particularly on the nose and wings. Eventually they could leave camo color for background, but all that work for a dark green nose... I don't think.
I suspect that there is a stripe of some gloss color over the wing in correspondance of the nacelle; on the photo from the right, it could justify that uncomplete darker stripe that looks to reflect the darker shade on the fuselage.
Regards
Massimo

Agreed 100%. Since it is unknown what is happening on the wings. I think the current profile lay out is a very good representation. Colour? Who really knows at this point.

The reason I asked about the date for his aircraft was because of that photo I posted it is dated 1942. It was pointed out to me by a person I am working with to make a skin of this aircraft for a flight SIM game.

That if the 1942 date is correct AMT-11 was not used until September 1943?

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html

Also the red Falcons site that I got the photo from if it is translated correctly says the plane was presented to him in 1942.

Click on part 7 & search for his name to get to that link.


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fairaces.narod.ru%2Findex.html

Here is a portion of the text.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/stepanyana-1.jpg)

Thoughts?

I think it isn't:

1.  wing top is different colour then wing root and the fuselage.  It's lighter.
2.  necelles were pinted same as engine cowling (plane's nose)
3.  Nose, necelles and tail are not the same colour as the markings.  Those parts are darker than red stars

Cheers,
KL

I too looked at that right view of that photo & was playing about with it not sure if it is a stripe or just a panel reflecting the light some how.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2-3.jpg)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2-3-1.jpg)

The area in question I think matches this photo of another plane.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-22-1-1.jpg)

It's a shame that the left wing is at just enough of an angle to hide this area.

Sorry I was not clear. Colour I agree may not be correct on the profile. Your pattern & paint lines are very good based of what is in hand. That is what I meant by lay out.

Few paint lines (borders between paints) are missing:
1. Between gray wing root and light blue wing top
2. Between dark green (or dark blue, or dark red) necelle and light blue wing undersides

KL

I think I may have found a partial answer to this point you have made.

I bought Vasily Emelianenko's book & it has a few photos of IL-2's in it & there is this one of an IL-2 that bears a striking resemblance to the plane in question.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/il2star.jpg)

As you can see the same strange rectangle on the leading edge of the plane similar painted spinner with the star as well as the nacelles for the landing gear.

The most striking feature to me is that the dark area painted along the wing root is not the same colour as the fuselage & it looks to follow what I believe is on the leading edge of Stepayans aircraft as well.

 
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Stepanian_il2.jpg)


(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/il2.jpg)

Thoughts?

Hi Barneybolac,
the resemblance is strong, it could even to be the same plane photographed in another date. Unfortunately it doesn't clarify the matter. Does the text add anything?
Regards
Massimo

Agreed with the clarification. The text you see in the first photo is all that is on the photo. Started reading the book maybe something else in there? We will see.


EDIT: I think this is the same aircraft from my prior post in this thread from the red falcons site. Take note of underlined green.


(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/il2star-2.jpg)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/gvtanks-3-1.jpg)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/stepanyana-1-1.jpg)

Big coincidence don't you think? Same unit.

It wasn't the same plane.  If nothing else, two well known pilots...

Yemelyanenko's 4th shap was renaimed 7th gshap in March 1942.  It's full name would be something like: 7th Guard's Attack, of Sevastopol, of the Order of Lenin, of the Red Banner Aviation Regiment - http://allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/p/shap4.dat

Stepanyan's 57 pshap VVS VMF was renaimed 7th gshap VVS VMF in March 1943.  It's full name would be: 7th Guard's Dive-bombing and Attack, of Talin, of the Red Banner, of the Order of Ushakov Aviation Regiment VVS VMF - http://allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/p/shap57.dat

This example only shows that Red Star was a popular decorative element on Il-2s.  Wheel necelles and spinners were natural place for them.  Spinner of Yemelyanenko's Il-2 had a regular 5-point Red Star.  Stepanyan's Il-2 had what looks like a 6-point star.

KL

Hi Konstantin, hi Barneybolac
interesting... the numbers of the units are the same, but their full name was not so.
Regards
Massimo

But... why does this Il-2 show its nose painted in a solid light color?  I've on my hands another photo of an Il-2 downed in 1944 that seems to show the very same thing!
Regards
Massimo

Interesting points there thank you.

Do any of you have an thoughts for that strange rectangle area on the leading edge of the wing?

Is it an access panel for servicing of some kind? Or prop wash kicking up dust that is wearing the paint off? Maybe ground crews sitting on the wing wearing it in that manner.

In the case of Stepanyan's aircraft it is very distinct & a constant shape. Possibly tape to seal the the panel seams similar to F4U Corsairs along the nose of the plane?

I know this is no way to compare these pictures for colour accuracy. Kind of interesting this Yak-1B when you have it alongside the IL-2 in question though?

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2-Arrow-ElabouratePresentationMachineJPEG-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/yak1b1-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/9-3-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/yak1b1-2.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/yak1b.jpg)

Hi,
there is resemblance, no doubt. Who knows if they were painted by the same artist?
Regards
Massimo

I asked my Armenian friend to translate the Redfalcons site in regards to Stepenyan & his plane. The Google translation was so bad that I could not figure out what was fact or not.

The main point of interest is outside of the photos there is no reference at all to his aircraft except the photos & profile. At the end it lists a documentary that the information was gathered from for that site.

There is a film about 20 min long done in 1965.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0420800/

I found this link with a documentary on Nelson Stepanyan click on the 4TH picture.

http://zomobo.net/nelson-stepanyan

Or the direct link this did not work before?

http://zomobo.net/play.php?id=_3DR9QQh0DI

Found it on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_3DR9QQh0DI#!

& it has these three still shots that I took screen shots of.



(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson1-1.jpg)


(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson.jpg)


(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson2-1.jpg)

Bottom line there is more photos out there of this plane & the quality has to be better than the screen shots I have took from the Youtube link.

Hopefully some one can translate the film it might have more clues as to what this plane looked like?

The small rectangles on the leading edges of the wings are very interesting to me? Any thoughts on this since a photo I posted earlier of another plane has the same look? Personally I think they are wear marks by ground crews sliding off the front the leading edge of the plane from the wing? If so I think it would indicate this plane was used often & not just a propaganda photo shoot where the aircraft was painted for just that event?

Was watching the clip again & noticed another shot that I missed.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson3-1-1.jpg)

Also with actual video footage of Stepanyan on the Youtube link I think the still photos of his plane may actually be taken from film footage when he was presented his HSU. Just like the Emelyanenko clip I posted in this thread.

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=173.0

A portion of film with Stepanyan in front of another IL-2 has the answer to the rectangle on the leading edge I believe.

A ladder.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson4-1-1.jpg)

Hi Barneybolac,
thank you very much for the screenshots. The detail of the line on the prop blades is new, and six tips on the star on the spinner look confirmed.
I don't think that the rectangle on the leading edge has to do with a ladder.
I think that there is another color under the white line over the wings fillet, but I can't say if it's red, It just looks lighter than the nose and tail.
Regards
Massimo

Have to disagree with you on this part I think the white lines may be bare metal of the aircraft skin from the the ladder rubbing the leading edge or maybe some kind of light colour primer?

If you look at the other picture I have posted you can see the same pattern only not as prevalent. Maybe less ware & tear at this point in time but is clearly wear of the finish coat of paint.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/il2.jpg)

On Nelsons plane the pattern is more prevalent as well as beyond the landing gear nacelle. Wish it was clearer I think it would show the wear better.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson5-1.jpg)

Now if you look at the ladder picture you can see that there is two forms at the end of the ladder that are cut to fit the profile of the leading edge of the wing. You can actually see the gap between the two cut forms. Those forms are what I think is forming the two horizontal lines of the rectangle when the ladder has been dragged across the wing face.

 (http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson4-1-2.jpg)

All open for debate of course.  ;D

The new pictures do prove a few facts as you mentioned & a few I noticed as well. The white line that runs up & over the wing is with out question there & now we know exactly wear it ends interestingly flush with the most outer edge of the wing radius. The darker nose colour continues beyond & lower than the end of the white stripe & I would not of thought it would be like that. Also you can just catch a glimpse of the dark wing radius colour & its demarcation line to what ever the top of the wing colour is.

I kind of cropped it a little close.
When you look at the still in the video it is a little more obvious.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson-1.jpg)

What ever that dark wing radius colour is I think it is the same colour that is along the leading edge of the wing & forming the patterns around the landing gear nacelles as well.


I really do think that these new pictures are frames from a news reel though. Some where maybe there is actual motion film of this plane. That would be very exciting to find.



Edit: Just noticed that one of the older profiles has the stripes on the prop not one but two & looking at those new pictures closer I think there is two as well.



(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/1_35-2.jpg)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson5-1-1.jpg)

Hi Barneybolac,
I don't think that it's the wearing due to the ladder. It is too regular and present outside the engine nacelles too. Besides the plane has just been painted. Besides it's very rare in worn Il-2s on photos of other planes. I think that it divides surfaces painted with different colors.
Regards
Massimo

I have been looking for a long time for the 1965 documentary film of Nelson Stepanyan & I found it at this Russian site.

http://kinozon.tv/381511

Wanted to look at this to see if anything is on the film in regards to his plane.

Only problem is they only deliver in Russia.

Any Russians here that will work with me on getting this CD sent to me? Or have seen this film & know if it is of any help?

Regards: Rodney.

Found this well known photo again & it's a sharper photo than any other of this side of the plane I have seen before.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_0_1646a_30eb1f1b_L.jpg)

I think it shows clearly what I thought I could see in other pictures.  That the darker nose portion of the aircraft shows the darker colour is actually painted above the white line & leads back towards the cockpit & possibly even further than what I have outlined & another possible white line along it's edge?

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/il2step.jpg)

Also I think this better photo shows that there is most likely a camo pattern on the wing of some sort & not just one solid colour.

Rodney, that does look like a white line along the edge of that upper cowling continuation of the dark colour.  As far as the wing, other than the wingroot appearing lighter than the part of the wing immediately next to it, it's hard to tell if it's camouflaged.

Regards,

Jason

It is looking like that the dark canopy colour may actually be attached so to speak with the dark nose in some sort of V shaped configuration?

Curious as to all of your thoughts on the colours of Stepanyans aircraft now with this sharper picture?

You can see the top of a tail of what I assume is another IL-2 in the background & I would also assume it is painted in a more conventional paint scheme to Stepanyans plane. So using the tip of tail as a reference for a base line side by side analysis what do you all think his aircraft may be painted like now?

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_0_1646a_30eb1f1b_L.jpg)

Hi Rodney and Jason,
it seems that the white aiming lines over the nose have survived the repainting of the plane.

Regards
Massimo

Now that makes sense did not think of that nice find.

I wonder how that darker section looks from above on the aircrafts nose?

Using Stepanyan's bio at http://airaces.narod.ru/all7/stepn_ng.htm IMHO, it is posible to (roughly) date photos of Stepanyan's "elabourately painted Il-2".

-  Stepanyan was awarded HSU in Oct 1942.
-  in Nov 1942 becomes squadron commander (still in 57 shap)
-  throughout 1943 and begining of 1944 Stepanyan is an instructor.  First he trains section leaders and later he teaches courses to higher oficers of the VVS KBF.
-  in Apr 1944 he was sent to front again as a commander of the 47 shap which participated in fightings for Crimea.

"Elabourately painted Il-2" fits the best in 1943.  Stepanyan was already a celebrity, he was in the rear so the camouflage wasn't necessary.  His plane is an early two-seater probably made in late 1942 or in first half of 1943.  Rear gun is not visible - it was probably removed from a training plane.
Stars have thin red outline - this was introduced in Sept 1943.

IMHO, photos were taken in autumn 1943.

KL

A friend gave me this link.

http://video.yandex.ru/users/e-muchnaya/view/1/

It has the still shots I posted before only the clarity of the photos are fantastic.

Also in the first photo is that a bouquet of flowers near the rear of the aircraft?

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsona_zpsf93cbb1f.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsona_zpsf93cbb1f.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonb_zpsa85ad49c.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonb_zpsa85ad49c.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonc_zpsd66f7b08.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonc_zpsd66f7b08.jpg.html)

Very interesting photographs. The last photograph says April of 1944, yet this appears to be an early straight-winged two-seater (note the "tunnel"-type rear gunner's canopy). It's interesting that an early two-seater would have been given as a presentation machine to a Hero of the Soviet Union, instead of the swept-winged variant (arrow), that was being produced at this time.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Rodney,
thanks for the excellent photos.  April 1944 label was inserted by movie makers because at that point in the movie, it describes how in April 1944 Stepanyan became a commander of 47 shap.  Movie presents Stepanyan as a warrior so it somehow skips period from March 1943 to April 1944...  ;)

HTH,
KL 

That explains it, Konstantin. I couldn't have imagined an HSU flying anything but an arrow by Spring of 1944.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Rodney, hi all,
thank you for having posted these good images.
I don't know about flowers, are them visible on all the photograms of the movie or only on this one?
I see that the starlets on the nacelles are shadowed as those of Kremlin; beside I think to see that there is a very slight change in colors along a thin ring around the white part of the spinner. I think that two dark colors were used, I suppose red and blue, but which parts was blue and which red it's only a guess. I think that the rear part of the spinner is of the same color of the nose.
I'm in doubt also on the red color attributed to the canopy frames. I see that the photos show a dark shade perfectly consistent with red, but the plane was painted to give the idea to be sleeker, and an high visibility color for the ugly box-like canopy would ruin this effect. Should I paint such a plane, I would use a medium grey to make it less visible.
Regards
Massimo

What I think I see is not drawn on but are two actual bunches of flowers. They are only on this first still shot.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/d8bf0552-608b-4d89-96bd-06e48770aefe_zpsa5139162.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/d8bf0552-608b-4d89-96bd-06e48770aefe_zpsa5139162.jpg.html)


What I have always wondered the most what are the top surfaces of the wings painted like? Still confused by the leading edge of the wings with the rectangle looking white lines.

Flight recognition colours or something like that? They seem to be another colour to the surrounding leading edge of the wing.

Hi Rodney,
the wings are a big question mark. Bot observing the photos from the sides, I see that they are painted gloss, while the supposed grey on the fuselage is very matt. Besides I see a tiny dark line on the undersurface of the photo from the left-rear that suggests that all the uppersurface is painted with a darker gloss color that extends a bit under the leading edge.
 The white-bordered rectangles are surely of another bright color.
The photo from the right-rear seems to show a light walking band on the wingroot.
I wonder if the wing uppersurface could be painted glossy dark blue with red wingroot and rectangles (or vice versa).
Regards
Massimo

I think we are on the same page here on the wings.

My thoughts are that the leading edge of the wings are tied together with the wing root & the wheel nacelles with some pattern that can't be seen in any of these photos so far. Then the rest of the wing is a single colour maybe the same as the fuselage.


For example with the photo below granted not a very good one.
It is clearly the aircraft in question as can be seen with the dark wing root with the white line border.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_zps98584c8f.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_zps98584c8f.jpg.html)

It looks like the top of the wing has a very washed out appearance & very light in colour.

Where the front edge in this photo is very dark & at least to me an entirely different colour & some sort of stylized wing top.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg.html)

I took the liberty of using the decal sheet that was on this thread as an example of a possible pattern. The red colour I chose just to
match the profile. I hope I am not breaking any rules with doing this.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/K32197.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/K32197.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/K32197_zps9a4cee20.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/K32197_zps9a4cee20.jpg.html)

I can't draw with a mouse so I just dotted the areas instead of filling them in.

That's my thoughts on it.
With out a top view of this aircraft it will always be a best guess.

Hi,
I see it this way:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/stepanyan-q2.jpg)
As said, I think that the wing uppersurface looks light because it's gloss, while the fuselage is matt.
Being the most visible color, red could be less used: thin blue stripes on the wing leading edge would have passed unobserves on a red background.
Regards
Massimo

That pattern would be a very good estimation based with what is in hand. Do you think the white pin stripes run around the nacelles & maybe up towards the nose of the underside of the engine cowling? I can see the white line in some places but not on others.

I can't see dark blue wings....

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/9-3-1.jpg)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_0_1646a_30eb1f1b_L.jpg)

It can't be a reflection or glare that covers entire wing, on both photos.  IMHO, wing upper surface are light blue (same as undersides).  Maybe dark blue trimmings on leading edges?
Horizontal stabilizers are different colour than wings, probably painted in same style as tailfin.

KL
  

Hi,
I have to agree that the wings aren't similar to the tail.
I don't think they are painted with the same light blue than undersurfaces, it should be more matt, but it could be another glossy light blue as A-10, utilized for oxygen systems.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/stepanyan-q3.jpg)
I'm still thinking about the nose. I've drawn it as red over blue sides, but I think it should be of the same color. Viewed from the front, it resembles the upper part of a star, and this would suggest the use of red for the nose. But, why not to paint the lower braces under the nose?
Regards
Massimo

Thanks to new better rez photos, IMHO a few conclusions can be made:

1. Wing root fairing under the white trim line is darker than fuselage side above white trim line
2. Canopy railing is darker than canopy frame and side armor
3. Wing root fairing is probably same color as canopy frame and side armor

By looking at Massimo's last drawing, I think now that blue wing top doesn't work... it doesn't look right. Wing top has to be extremely reflective: glossy very light blue, bright yellow, white or silver.  From those four only silver makes sense.  There are other parts that could be silver:  propeller blades, spinner, maybe even the trim line...
Silver would also explain that long metal panel that can be faintly seen on one of the photos.

I am pretty sure in following colours graded from lightest to darkest:
- silver (for wing upper surface)
- light blue (for undersides)
- medium blue-gray for fuselage sides and tail conus
- medium blue for wing root fairings and cockpit canopy

Only questionable color is the darkest color (engine cowling, wing leading edges, necelles, canopy railings and tail).  It's either dark blue or dark red.

Two options based on the analysis above

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/bluecolour_right_profile_zps458d460a.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/blue_redcolour_right_profile_zpsf8a1ecde.jpg)

Sorry, I can't do better  :-\ I hope Misos will help with coloring...

Regards,
KL

Hi,
I'm not convinced of the use of blue A-10 on the canopy, because its frames appear matt on the image, and A-10 is glossy.
I don't agree on the use of silver too: the surface should appear much less uniform, in particular, a darker part should be visible where the wing reflects the fuselage side, and along the upper contour of the wing, because the reflectivity of a metallic surface is low for a nearly tangential direction; to be credible as silver, the wing should appear as contoured with a pencil.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
so what color do you see behind Stepanyan's right arm?

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_zps98584c8f.jpg)

Soviet silver is actually best described as "metallic white" and that is, IMHO, what we see on the photo above...
Regards,
KL

Glad you guys are hashing this out. What ever is the finished product it's going to be good.

I asked this before about the white pin striping. In the picture I drew some arrows at what I think looks like a white line around a nacelle & a possible white line under the leading edge of the wing. The only problem it is not visible on the other nacelle. Plus a possible intersection where the line is possibly hidden by the propeller blade & it might run the length of the engine cowling.

Thoughts?

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670fa_zpsa7e6b454.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670fa_zpsa7e6b454.jpg.html)

 

Hi Konstantin,
Not silver. The shade should change by much with the inclination. Besides the wing should reflect the fuselage and couldn't be lighter than it.
For what I know, the only pigment in Soviet aluminium pain is aluminium powder, not white.
Strange about the lack of continuation of the dark part of the wing fillet close to the right arm.

Hi Rodney,
I don't think that there is a white line there. It could be an artifact of jpg compression. In my idea, the white line ceases on the undersurface. What is shown by your arrows looks a piece of light blue undersurface to my eyes.
Regards
Massimo

Shades and reflections on objects painted in silver depend on lighting (where is the Sun, and how intense is the sunlight).  On b/w photos, silver painted objects sometimes look white or gray.

Wing upper surface and propeller blades are the brightest objects on these photos, most likely painted in same color.  What color do you propose for propeller blades?  Lemon yellow, light blue, white or silver?

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg)

 

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_zps98584c8f.jpg)

Darker wing root fairing does continue to the left, take a closer look...

Regards,
KL

Hi,
I think that the front of the blades was white. Their look is very uniform, besides they have curved lines likely painted by brush, and the most part of silver enamels (ex.Humbrol) are a pain to be overpainted with brush because they mix with the new paint.
Perhaps gloss white could be an option for the wings too? Blue, white and red should have an emotional value for Russians, they were the colors used on the planes of Aeroflot after the war.
White would justify the lighter band close to the fuselage: it was worn because of steps, and it was retouched (but why to mask a retouch of he same color?)
Regards
Massimo

Would Nelson be flying those colours as an Armenian?

Then again he would not have much of a say in that I suppose during that time.

Thanks also on the answer with the pin stripes nice to know why things appear the way that they do at times on the internet.

Hi Massimo,
I agree with white for propeller blades, wing upper surfaces and main LG tires...


Tsarist blue-red-white flag was forgotten in 1917.  New flag of the socialist Russian republic was plain red.  Blue red and white combination didn't have any "emotional" value to Russians till 1990es...

Flag of the socialist Armenia was plain red too...

Massimo, any thoughts about the colour of wing roots and cockpit canopy?

regards,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
I suppose that the canopy frames could be painted grey: AMT-11, 12 or a mix of them. They are the only matt colours that seem nice on a supposed grey/red/blue/white livery, and minimize the visibility of frames. Olive green (original) look possible, but less nice.
The stripe on the fillet... hard to say, I think red, it looks lighter than the nose but this could be due to the different inclination. The main question is if the nose is red, dark red or blue.
Seems that the front of the landing gear legs was painted white. The front only. I'm not sure about the wheel disk, could be green or maybe repainted black.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
interesting discussion. That plane looks like parrot. ::) Was operational, or only kind of "spare" somewhere in the rear wildly painted (like shark-mouth La-5)?
Wings were wood or metal (Jason, sorry for silly question). As far as I know the AMT paint for wood were quite glossy, but A-XXm for metal were hard matt.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_0_1646a_30eb1f1b_L.jpg)
Photo of colorized winter Airacobra Mk.1 reminds me glossy upper surface with reflection. There is dark band on the wing root, then some matt bright color and the glossy bright color with the reflection of the relatively dark fuselage (in this case darker than sky) on it.

Note the thin dark line on the wing behind the pilot's right arm:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_zps98584c8f.jpg)
It could make border between those two bright colors mentioned above.
From what I saw basicaly every nonstandard painted area on this plane has some outline.
According to the soft shadows on the ground it does not look like bright sunny day but moreless cloudy day. So no shining even on the glossy surfaces.

Do you have, please, this photo (or similar):
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_0_1646a_30eb1f1b_L.jpg)
in the resolution at least 200DPI and longer side at least 2K for colorizing purpose?

Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
I would say that it's a plane of Z.18, with metal wings. The rear of the canopy is slightly different from those of other factories: the last two vertical frames are closer ( I don't know if the total length of the rear part of the canopy is the same of other factories or slightly less).
Regards
Massimo

Of course this wasn't a combat airplane - it was Stepanyan's "personal plane" at the time when he was an instructor in flying school in rear.  We are not discussing camouflage in any form here; the plane was painted to look as distinctive (or decorative) as possible.


AMT paints were matt (or as matt as A-XXm paints).  VVS and NKAP requested matt paints as a replacement for glossy AII paints and VIAM formulated them in 1941/42.  Only camouflage colours were included in AMT series of paints.  This switch from glossy to matt camouflage paints was considered as an important improvement.


You have to take in account and consider all photos from the series and you will get an idea what parts of the plane were painted in same colour (see Reply #65) - wing root panel and cockpit canopy framing/armor plates were painted in same colour.  The question is what color...  ???


IMHO, absolutely correct!!!  Overcast, grayish-blue sky and no reflections on glossy surfaces.  For example, red star was glossy (AMT red hasn't ever been formulated), but on all photos it looks flat.


See Reply #46 - Barneybolac seems to have a better resolution image.  What is posted there is 500x308 image, but the cropped image is 1023x595.

Rodney, could you please post higher res photo you found?

Regards,
KL

If canopy frames are AMT-11, what is the fuselage color?

IMHO, canopy frames and armor plates were painted in one of "decorative" paints to look better, not to minimize the visibility of frames.  Wing root panel wasn't painted in same color to minimize its visibility.  Canopy and wing root are best seen on the following photo:

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsona_zpsf93cbb1f.jpg)

Realistically, dark red and dark blue are the only options for nose and tail.

Regards,
KL

Hi,
here I briefly colorized front-view photo:

- front fuselage dark blue:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141124_Il-2Step_color_01_zps16217499.jpg)

- alternatively front fuselage dark red:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141124_Il-2Step_color_01b_zpsb4f4e5b6.jpg)

- under surface je light blue AMT-7,
- upper surface, propeller spinner and front of nacelles are light blue-grey AMT-11,
- band on the wing root and canopy framing are dark grey AMT-12,
- wheel discs are dark green.
Colors are not perfectly tunned, just to give feeling about overall appearance.
Hope it helps in the discussion.
regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
thanks for the help!

IMHO, colorized photos show that gray canopy and wing roots are not "decorative" at all and not likely.  Many small details should be changed:

- tail is the same color as engine cowling
- wedge in front of the windscreen is the same color as engine cowling
- wing leading edge is the same color as engine cowling
- canopy railings are the same color as engine cowling (darker than canopy framing)
- no white line on undersides between the dark colour and light blue
- spinner and disks on necelle tips are white, same as propeller blades
- no red & white rings between the white and dark part of the spinner

regards, KL

That is interesting you took those white lines in every direction I was thinking. Especially the one that travels up & over the wing along the wing radius. It was pointed out that it may be a issue with the photo jpeg compression. I do have a question though about the nacelles however. I believe the dark colour might possibly runs along most of the length of the outside face of the nacelles. Or is it some sort of stain & the profile below is more accurate in regards to the area I have shown in the photo?

For example.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/9-3-1_zps7abc38ee.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/9-3-1_zps7abc38ee.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670fd_zps3daf3189.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670fd_zps3daf3189.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/1_35-2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/1_35-2.jpg.html)


 Also the outer band on the propeller that seems to be another colour than the inner band. Possible yellow outer red inner. Then thicker for red being the prominent colour of the Soviet flag & yellow for the thinner band to represent the smaller portion of yellow on the flag for the hammer & sickle?
Pure speculation on my part there.

Hi,
just finished one alternative of the side view:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141124_Il-2Stepanyanside_01_zpsdc791c40.jpg)
I am not sure about the white spinner and disks on nacelle tips - there is brighter thin band on the spinner and nacelle tips looks similarly grey (or even darker) than under surface color.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos, hi all,
the idea that reflections are revealed by the sun only isn't right, they are mainly revealed by the changes of angulation between the observer and the reflecting surface. On a curved surface, it's easy to see eventual reflections.
The canopy frames appear matt, while the band at the wingroots is gloss, as visible with its change of angulation on the image from the front.
The idea that the canopy frames are of the same color of the band at the wingroot is surely wrong.
There was no matt red in Soviet inventory, for what I know.
Being matt, the frame should be in a mix of AMT or A-xxm colors, that are all camo colors.
My guess is for a mix of light blue AMT-7 or A-28m and A-32m or black; all these colors were utilized on Il-2s in 1944 and should have been easily available on that school in the maintenance depot.
The same for the upper part of the fuselage, but with light blue prevailing on the darker shade.
The supposed blue fillet is clearly extended backwards on the outer side of nacelles.
I don't think that the spinner and front of the nacelles, around the stars, have grey or silver backgrounds. They should be gloss white imho.
The irregular white points around the front of the spinner could have due to drops of paint that have accumulated with the piece painted front-up, so they mark a relief rather than a variation in colour. Or perhaps, they could be traces of color beyond the division line on the contour of the rear part of the spinner, if the pieces were painted with the front still mounted on the plane (I don't think so). Anyway they are too irregular to be identified as a white ring.
About the dark shade of the lower part of the supposed white front of the nacelle, just behind the pilot: it appears darker than the corresponding part on the other side because it reflects the dark back of the pilot's uniform. This part appers even darker than the light blue of the nacelle under it, that is matt and has no directional reflections.
I hope this helps.
Regards
Massimo

Poor science - no light source, no reflections, no colors, no optics.  It is true though, that curved surface reflects light differently than flat surface


Canopy frames may appear matt because the frames and especially canopy armor plates, are actually flat surfaces.  Wing root may appear glossy because it is a curved surface.  Mind you that the wing root is the most pronounced and the largest concave surface on any plane, so it will always look different than the rest of the plane...

Anyway, canopy frames and the wing root  band are surely the same colour.  What colour, we don't know - it's only clear that the colour is darker than fuselage and significantly lighter than engine cowling...  If you can prove that this unknown color is really matt, the number of options would be reduced and that would be really good!  :)


So far we have always assumed use of pure paints.  No mixing otherwise any color is possible (purple and pink for example).  What would be the purpose of this mixing - to create matt dark blue-gray?  Visually it would be the same as pure dark gray AMT-12.  No need for mixing.


I don't understand what part of the fuselage and what shade...


I agree:  dark colour extends along nacelle under the wing.  I also agree that the spinner and nacelle tips are white


Agree:  no white ring...



Reflections and shades on nacelle tips would be even easier to explain if we consider them as silver (or more precisely "metallic white").

Regards,
KL

Hi Misos,
that looks very good!  I hope it is in layers so you could change colours and allow us to experiment?

Details to check/change/correct:

- IMHO the art is a regular, full ellipse, not a flattened oval
- strip that covers transition between windshield and fuselage is same color as canopy framing
- antenna mast is same color as fuselage
- IMHO no thin red line on wing; it's a panel line
- shading of undersides should be darker, locally close to black (more contrast)

Maybe you could also colorize background and the pilot?  Ground could be something like a football field in Slovakia in October or in early April.

regards,
KL

Hi,
Canopy frames are flat on the top and side only. Top and side are not parallel, and they are joined by a curved surface. Here I can't see any sight of gloss refection, differently than on wingroots, nose and tail fillet.
Take into account that the canopy appears on many photos from many perspectives, and none of them shows it gloss.


The part that is supposed to be AMT-11. It can also be that there was not AMT-11 in a school where they flew Shturmoviks that didn't use it, so it had to be a mix of light blue and dark grey or black. This could help to explain the strangely dishomogeneous look of this surface. Anyway, this doesn't make much difference about the resulting shade.
Just, I think that the frames look too light to be pure AMT-12, so I think that it could be a lighter mix.

I don't think, the dark parts should be much more marked.
The other nacelle front should reflect much darker parts where it faces the nose side and the ground. What I think to see is that they reflect in the same manner of the glossy dark leading edge.
Silver is 'metallic white' just as gold is 'metallic yellow'. Only a name, not even official.  If you go to buy a car, these names have very different meanings.
No white pigment in AII aluminium colors, only aluminium powder, medium and transparent components. I can't see why they should be different from Humbrol, Gunze and so on.
Unless you mean that he mixed silver with white... possible, I've tried, but the result is similar to light grey.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
as far as I know from this discussion and from other forums
- this plane was in the training/school unit, not in combat one,
- was that training school only for Il-2 or also for fighters (this could determine available paints)?
- color palette in VVS was quite limited,
- paints available on the local stocks were quite limited, sometimes even in PARMs, often resulting in improvisation during repairs.
- supplies for training units had lower priority than for combat units,
- AMT paints had very poor durability when applied directly on A-xxm paints.
- white and silver were equivalents for marking, numbers etc., both could be similarly available.

I personally would prefer silver for this kind of decorative painting. Plus to make work fast and simple I would avoid mixing paints.

Could this summary help to determine or exclude paints for this Il-2?
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
I haven't mentioned white pigments anywhere, so stop distorting what I really said.  
I know perfectly well what were AE-8 and AII Al, it was you who few years ago asked from me evidence that AE-8 was silver, not gray - those posts are still buried somewhere on this forum.  No need to teach me something you have learned from me...



True, "Metallic White" is a commercial name I found in a modern paint catalog.  But, among many paints called "silver", "aluminum" etc., chip of this paint was the closest to the real AII Al.  Name is descriptive and it stresses the fact that in some light conditions paint does look white.  That is why I like this name.  It doesn't have anything to do with white pigments.

I have no idea what pigments that particular paint manufacturer uses for "Metallic White".  You have no clue what pigments are in Humbrol's, Gunze's, etc silver paints and whether those paints are technologically same as AII Al and AE-8.  What matters is how modern paints look when applied and how similar they are to the original Soviet era silver paints.


"Silver" is also quite general category in modellers world because there are dozens of different paints that are called "silver".  There are also "aluminium", "natural metal finish" etc. which are basically same as "silver" category.  This is confusing, I only hoped that "Metallic White" sounds more specific.  

Regards,
KL    

Yes, it helps.  Every idea and every colorized photo helps.  :)

I would summarize results of the analysis of new photos and the discussion we had in last few days as follows:

-  canopy and wing root band are not red, their colour is lighter than fuselage red star
-  canopy and wing root band are most likely matt (thanks Massimo!)
-  fuselage top and sides are very light and most likely matt
-  fuselage underside is even lighter than its sides and possibly glossy
-  engine cowling, canopy railings and wing leading edges are visibly glossy
-  there are two reds on "Kremlin Stars" - same two reds can be identified as colours used to decorate wing leading edges, engine cowling and canopy railings
-  Silver "metallic white" and glossy white are both options for wing top, spinner and nacelle tips.  Photos are so poor that it isn't possible to determine which paint was there.
-  only standard external aviation paints available in 1943/44 should be used for interpretation, no mixed paints
-  number of paints/colours used in interpretation should be kept as low as possible

Starting from these propositions it is easy to reconstruct Stepanyan's Il-2 !!!
HTH,
KL     

Seems to me that you are using this improper name 'metallic white' to distort the fact that something on a photo hasn't the typical look of aluminium paint.  
Yes, aluminium can look as white in some circumstances. On  flat surface reflecting the sky, for example.
It can also look as dark grey, if the flat surface reflects the ground.
If the surface is curved, reflects the sky, the ground, etc and has a typical contrasted look.
Now, I  don't see this on the spinner, nor on the front of the nacelle.

I know for sure that the pigment on aluminium paints is aluminium powder. The difference in the look of the painted surface depends more on how the paint is mixed than on its brand. Yes, there can be variations relative to the thickness of the grains, the proportion between pigment and transparent components etc, but the mixing can change completely the look of the finished surface.

Another thing, much more important than the colors on a plane of seventy years ago:

You are accusing me to distort your words.
You are also adding that, if I know something, it's only because you have teached it to me... no matter that good translations of Orlov and other documents are available since years ago.
That is enough!
People on this forum knows how to discuss in polite way, in general. This is required to all the members.

Regards
Massimo

I am sorry I just noticed your request.

The two photos in #46 are the same picture. I took the first picture in #46 & using paint.net I enlarged it & took a screenshot of the enlargement & that is the second picture.

I had done several shots that I gave to a friend for a possible skin. I think this was the first one that I did before I started drawing on them.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonil21.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonil21.jpg.html)


Also a question in regards to the presentation of this IL-2. It was clearly a big event on the day with photographers & so on. Where was this presentation done & if known is it possible that reporting done on the day, may have actually described his plane in some detail. Since the papers would have been in a black & white & the photos of course if any were published at that time. So they may have described it for the benefit of the readers?

I have no idea what the media coverage would have been like in Russia during WWII under Communism it may be worth looking into though. 
Old news stories in Western papers are kept on Microfiche is it possible that a similar process has taken place in Russia since this event?

Hi Barney,
nice photo. I would say that wing root is the same color as fuselage (and same as upper wings), there is only a white line. And darker part just bellow pilot's cockpit is only dirty paint. And that color is (semi) glossy, note different shadows above and bellow the panel line on the fuselage, just bellow the cockpit - we can see reflection of the fuselage on the wing. And that there is a band of matt paint (light grey on bw photo) exactly where black walkway is usually, therefore no reflection there.
Fuselage looks nice bright glossy paint. From those used as a standard in VVS that time (to make is fast & simple) I would say that it could be alluminium white/silver ;) And that walkway at the wing root is something light grey, probably AMT-11.

Another photos found at internet:

(http://airfighters.ru/step_ng3.jpg)
"Stepanyan at his repainted-on-the-top Il-2"
Seems re-painting process is not finished yet here:
- no stripes on the propeller blades,
- still single-color stars on the nacelles,
- no bright outline around the circle background of the nacelle stars,
- bright (white?) outline of the circle background and star on the propeller spinner.
Unfortunately, photo is heavily retouched, so who knows what is real.

These both photos from http://airfighters.ru/stepn_ng.php (http://airfighters.ru/stepn_ng.php) are dated to Leningrad, 1942, so none of them show his colorfull plane from the training school:
(http://airfighters.ru/step_ng9.jpg)     (http://airfighters.ru/step_ng0.jpg)  

Photos from http://waralbum.ru/152009/ (http://waralbum.ru/152009/):
Pilot from 57 PShAP of Baltic Fleet N.G.Stepanyan at Il-2, Leningrad, November 1941
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/53a2f18aa8eb.71ocdoclfn0og00ggwk4cgc08.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

Il-2 from the same unit, 57 PShAP, 1942:
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/b8a636afef111.7g3btafd6ckk44sk8owgkk44w.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/3b246b877e33.75if0c0ii8gsc8w4c8g0kkso8.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/8c39255cce3e1.41d16p4gkp440og8g40sk0sko.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

From Massimo's Mig3 page http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/mark-colors/mark-colors.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/mark-colors/mark-colors.html) could that right one:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/mark-colors/moskvared.jpg)(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/mark-colors/moskvacherryred.jpg)
be a candidate for dark red color
and this:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/mark-colors/tskb15.jpg)
the candidate for dark blue color?

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos, hi all,
this photo from the front shows white fillets on the spinner, so it could really be that the background of the star is silver.
I'm not sure that there are not stripes on the prop, they could be hidden by reflection because the sun is at the back of the photographer.
Two candidates for blues are:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/chips/A9darkblue.jpg) A-9

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/chips/A10blue.jpg) A-10

and their eventual nitro equivalents.

The datation of the first photo of 1942 is likely wrong, that plane is the same in discussion. The style and position of the star is uncompatible with the factory standard, to say nothing of the light and uniform background and of the dark line on the wingroot. Besides I see a panel line on the upper part of the fuselage that is typical of twoseaters, being a metal plate around the gunner's hatch.

About a white fillet on the lower part of the front of engine nacelles: to tell the truth, I'm not sure at all to see it on the large front photo.
 
Regards
Massimo

Technically speaking this wasn't a "presentation plane" - it wasn't bought from donations and presented to a pilot or a regiment.  It isn't clear if all photos have been taken during a single or during several photo sessions...  considering that Stepanyan may have flown this plane over some 6 months, 2-3 sessions are more likely   ???

Only one photo (below) indicates a significant date.  It's a group photo, probably Stepanyan together with school commanders and students.  It could be a welcome or a farewell photo.  IMHO, it wasn't a big celebration, no flags, salutes etc.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonc_zpsd66f7b08.jpg)

If this was a farewell photo, April 1944 would be a correct date.  Stepanyan really left flying school in April 1944 to take over command of the 47 shap.


Photo from the last post by Misos is clearly mislabeled, wrong place and wrong date.

(http://airfighters.ru/step_ng9.jpg)

Photo was taken sometime between autumn 1943 and spring 1944, not in 1942.  Photo caption says  "Combat task received" - this is also wrong; no combat tasks in flying school.

HTH,
KL
  

It's really strange that white outline around the spinner star isn't visible on better quality photos:

(http://airfighters.ru/step_ng3.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonc_zpsd66f7b08.jpg)

Even the "white ring" at the base of light painted part of the spinner could be a panel line or jpg compression artifact on better rez photos.

Keep in mind that the top photo is retouched - it isn't very reliable.  I would rely more on better rezolution, un-retouched photos.


A-9 and A-10 were interior oil paints, not exterior paints.  Exterior aviation paints with these colours have been produced before the war, but it is unlikely that those were available in 1943 when Stepanyan's Il-2 was repainted.  This is even more true for nitro paints in A-9 and A-10 colours; it is almost certain that those were not available in 1943.

IMHO, standard camouflage paints and paints used for markings are much more realistic to expect on Stepanyan's Il-2.  So, darker red is much more likely than dark blue for engine cowling



I agree - no white border line between dark red wing leading edge and underside light blue.

Regards,
KL  

Hi,
was that dark standard VVS color? What was number of that paint? I never saw it in any table of VVS paints ???
According to Orlov-Vakhamov aircrafts were painted strictly with aircraft paints and due to technology reasons they did not combine layers of AMT-xx and A-xxm paints.
In other words, why should be any nonstandard VVS paint in the school unit in quantity enough to paint significant part of the aircraft.
IMHO, painting was performed by "professional" artist with the goal to make striking appearance, not circus showcase of all available paints.
From this POW that dark red could be mix of standard red and black, or it was not red at all, but some other standard dark color which esthetically goes with light blue undrewings, silver/alluminium upper wings and fuselage and with red stars and stripes - I would vote for dark grey (AMT-12) - standard paint for Il-2 in 1944.
Sorry for a bit longer text ;)
Look at stars on the naceles - they do not look like only two-color, but carefully shaded multicolor (dark red-red-orange-yellow) artwork like guard emblems and medals. Or as the multicolor artwork on the rear fuselage.
Regards,
    66misos

As I said in Reply #89:
-  only standard external aviation paints available in 1943/44 should be used for interpretation, no mixed paints
-  number of paints/colours used in interpretation should be kept as low as possible

But, check this plane made in 1943 and repainted in 1944/45:

(https://pp.vk.me/c617620/v617620419/20be8/v9gE8FHVuMg.jpg)

(https://pp.vk.me/c617620/v617620419/20c1a/1s7EL99LZHM.jpg)

-  Darker "raspberry" red is typical for 1941-43, "carrot" red is typical for 1944-45.
-  Darker shade of blue is wartime AMT-7, lighter shade is post war paint in line with pre-war A-18f and AII Sv Gol.

All four paints were possible on Stepanyan's Il-2.  It was made in early 1943 (maybe even earlier) and it was repainted in autumn 1943.
Its undersides were almost certinly same as undersides of the wreck preserved in Kiev:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/w00416_7303541.jpg)

This early two-seater was made in late 1942 and its wing are painted in a colour that looks like prewar A-18f and AII Light Blue, not darker AMT-7.  So undersides of Stepanyan's Il-2 were most likely "light" light blue A-18f or AII Lt Blue, not AMT-7...

If undersides are A-18f, then we have a "nice, elegant" AMT-7 left for fuselage.  We all agree that Stepanyan's Il-2 fuselage looks matt; and AMT-7 is matt!!!  AMT-7 is also the lightest AMT paint - if you carefully analyze  photos of Stepanyan's Il-2, its fuselage looks lighter than usually seen AMT camouflage paints.

HTH,
KL
  

Hi,
This summary is from KL's Reply #89, I already modified it according to IMHO. So let's add particular colors there to get final, most probably picture:
-  canopy colour is lighter than fuselage red star and it is most likely matt (thanks Massimo!)
-  canopy railing is the same color as canopy framing, but looks darker due to shadow and/or grease and/or dirty.
-  fuselage top and sides are very light and most likely matt - matt light blue AMT-7,
-  fuselage underside is even lighter than its sides and possibly glossy - "light" light blue A-18f or AII Lt Blue,
-  engine cowling and wing leading edges are visibly glossy,
-  rectangle areas outlined white are brighter than wing leading edges,
-  stars on the naceles - they look carefully shaded multicolor (dark red-red-orange-yellow) artwork like guard emblems and medals. Or as the multicolor artwork on the rear fuselage.
-  Silver "metallic white" for wing top, spinner and nacelle tips.
-  bright matt walkway at wing root - matt white?

This is from my Reply #92:
I would say that wing root is the same color as fuselage (and same as upper wings), there is only a white line. And darker part just bellow pilot's cockpit is only dirty paint. And that color is (semi) glossy, note different shadows above and bellow the panel line on the fuselage, just bellow the cockpit - we can see reflection of the fuselage on the wing. And that there is a band of matt paint (light grey on bw photo) exactly where black walkway is usually, therefore no reflection there.
Fuselage looks nice bright glossy paint. From those used as a standard in VVS that time (to make is fast & simple) I would say that it could be alluminium white/silver Wink And that walkway at the wing root is something light grey, probably AMT-11.

AMT paints could look quite glossy, see both planes on this photo:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-3/Cleaningaircraft.jpg)

Here I colorized another alternatives:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141128_Il-2Stepanyanside_02_zps33182868.jpg)
- bottom fuselage and underwings is "light" light blue A-18f or AII Lt Blue,
- side and top fuselage and upper wings is matt/semigloss light blue AMT-7,
- engine cowling, tail, whole canopy and wing leading edges is matt/semigloss dark grey AMT-12, which was standard color for Il-2, so easy available,
- red is gloss, so only stars and rectangles on the wing leading edges are red. Why should they have two different red colors ("cherry" and "carrot") at the school, when only one was standard at the time?
- wheel discs are standard dark green.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141128_Il-2Stepanyanside_02red_zpsa07f3535.jpg)
- same as above except:
- engine cowling, tail and wing leading edges are semigloss/glossy "cherry" red (early war color),
- whole canopy and stars are semigloss/glossy "carrot" red (late war color).

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,

It should be like this:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/nelsonil21-AMT_zpsf07548e2.jpg)


I am using a phrase "wing root band" for a band which is under the white trim line.  Wing root band is:
-  the same colour as canopy framing
-  darker than area above the white trim line
-  lighter than fuselage red star
-  it's matt.

All these properties are clearly visible here:

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsona_zpsf93cbb1f.jpg)

Wing root band and canopy are most likely blue-gray AMT-11.  This colour will make Massimo happy too:  he proposed dark gray AMT-12 for canopy; AMT-11 is close enough.


Area above the white line is called "fuselage" and it extends towards the tail (fuselage sides and top behind the rear gunner's cockpit).  Fuselage is:
-lighter than usual AMT-11 and AMT-12
-darker than undersides
-matt (no doubts about this)

The best fit for "fuselage" is light blue AMT-7 !!!  Forget old profiles, those profile artists didn't know anything about this plane.  Fuselage is light blue, not gray.

Finally, to keep things simple, top of wings is entirely painted in silver AE-8.  There are no walk ways, everything from "wing root band" to wing tip is "glowing" silver. 
Following photo shows wing top the best:

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonil21.jpg)

I can't see any other colour on wing top - it's all glowing silver...
For your reference some modern examples of "glowing" silver, also called "serebryanka":

(http://traveliving.org/wordpress/photo/dubrovskaya/holi/holi25.JPG)

(http://www.kraski-kron.ru/img/art/3/2.jpg) (http://www.dmendeleev.com/files/image/serebryanka.png)

(http://recn.ru/images/recn/2014/04/prigotovit-razvesti-krasit-serebrjanka-kraska-poroshok-10.jpg)

(http://www.rukikryki.ru/uploads/posts/2012-12/1356033045_3.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Given the gaudy nature, would not red canopy framing be a better choice?

the grey tone of the canopy is the same/similar to the red star and nose. 

My  'logic' is that the scheme has  been done for decorative effect, and the canopy framing has been repainted,  I'd do the canopy framing red, not  dark grey.

fascinating thread.

cheers
T

canopy railing is darker then canopy and same as fuselage red star.  It has to be red!.  And it is definitively glossy.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonb_zpsa85ad49c.jpg)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsona_zpsf93cbb1f.jpg)

no shadows and/or grease and/or dirty...

HTH,
KL

Hi all,
let's see the silver wings
(http://traveliving.org/wordpress/photo/dubrovskaya/holi/holi25.JPG)
you can see that the silver paint on the hand puts in strong evidence the minute details of the skin, because its reflection is strongly influenced by the angle of view and surrounding lights and shadows.
(https://pp.vk.me/c617620/v617620419/20be8/v9gE8FHVuMg.jpg)
you can see that the wing of an Il-2, more or less of the same period, is full of clearly visible rivets and panel lines
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsona_zpsf93cbb1f.jpg)
You can see that the panel lines of Il-2 are visible on the fuselage, even if it is painted with a matt paint.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonil21.jpg)
Now, look at the photos of the wings, supposedly painted silver. Panel lines and rivets should be greatly evident. Do you see them (apart possibly for one)? Do you see the reflection of the dark nose on the wing?

Now, I hope that the matt finish of the frames is evident.
Look at the wingroot:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg)
Is this paint matt? I would say no, it's gloss. I don't know if it is the same color of the nose and leading edge, but it's gloss.
Can it be the same matt color of the frame?


Why red A-13 can be utilized for exteriors, and A-9 and A-10 not? If they had to paint a blue number or spinner, why shouldn't them use colors already in inventory for the maintenance of internal systems?

Anyway, oil paints are not likely on the rear fuselage that was wooden, and already painted with nitro paint. I would assume that the work was made with equivalent nitro paints, at least on the rear fuselage and tail. From an illustrative point, this is not relevant.


This type if il-2s were built between November 1942 and July 1943. I don't see reason to think that they utilized AII blue and even less A-18f. I would say that likely color for the first half of 1943 is AMT-7. Perhaps metal parts could be painted with the similar A-28m.
The blue could have been darker in origin, and then faded. But I see some glowing around the landing gear doors, so I think that the undersurface was repainted with some semigloss paint. Could also be AII light blue, if they still found it in 1944.

I don't see reason to exclude mixed paints. The paints for the painting on the side images, at least, certainly required a mixing to create a realistic effect.
If the plane was painted by a painter, then it could be a point of honour to use personalized colors.  We could suppose that the colors were standard to make things simple, but it is only an assumption.

I agree that the photo showing fillets could have been retouched. Other photos are questionable, they show some white outlines, but they show them around the profiles of men too, so it can be a jpg artifact.
If we assume that there were not fillets, then my guess for the front of nacelles and spinner is still gloss white.

Regards
Massimo

 There are very good reasons why internal paints would not be used for exteriors - they are made with different chemical (and possibly physical i.e. grain size) constituents.  Internal paints do not have to meet the harsh environment whilst being thin, light, and staying attached to aluminium.  Without any specific knowledge of VVS practices, I'm sure that all kinds of paint would be used for the painting of decorative items and not just the limited range available for aircraft externals.    So for small areas, badges, or a one-off "lets have a show that doesn't have to endure" then yes, various paints/colours would be used, and looking at the more attractive artwork sometimes carried, like this one, it's a pretty safe assumption that they were.

Hi,
another alternatives:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141130_Il-2Stepanyanside_03_zps118ca54c.jpg)
- all under surfaces "light" light blue A-18f or AII Lt Blue or A-28m, which are lighter than AMT-7,
- side and top fuselage light blue AMT-7,
- canopy railing same red as stars,
- canopy framing and band at the wing root blue-grey AMT-11,
- wheel discs standard dark green,
- wing upper surfaces, front part of the propeller spiner, front part of the propeller blades and circles behind the stars on the nacelles gloss white or alluminium (metallic white),
- engine cowling, tail and wing leading edges same red as stars.
However, in this case I do not know, what color could be white-oultlined stripes at the wing leading edges (here not colorized):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141130_Il-2Step_color_03red_zpsbd904660.jpg).

But if engine cowling, tail and wing leading edges are dark blue, then white-oultlined stripes at the wing leading edges could be red:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141130_Il-2Step_color_03blue_zps673e6218.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141130_Il-2Stepanyanside_03blue_zpsa994c822.jpg)
From my "artistic" point of view this blue version looks better ;)

Example of dark blue is taken from this picture, as I have no other color photo of VVS dark blue:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/mark-colors/tskb15.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
as already written, I disagree about the color of the wingroots. The image shows clearly it's gloss.

I don't think that the rail is painted red. It desturbs the stramlined effect that all the other lines try to create.
The darker look of the rail could be due to some grease for the canopy rails, cleaned with a cloth, that made the matt grey more glossy and dark.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I also do not agree with all color combinations, but finally I wanted to colorize all "main" alternatives discussed lately.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonc_zpsd66f7b08.jpg)
IMHO there is reflection of the standing soldier on the upper wing, e.g. it is glossy. But there is a band of the different color on the upper wing between soldier and fuselage.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg)
Yes, on this photo wing root but also wing leading edge look glossy. Note sharp dark horizontal reflection on it and on the both sides of nacelle going throught white-outlined stripes.

IMHO canopy railing is the same color as canopy framing. It is more elegant and clean design.

I am not sure about gloss white or metallic white on the upperwing. Even semi-gloss / polished AMT-7 (same color as fuselage) would be so bright from such low angle.

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
on the first photo, the leading edge appears surprisingly light if compared to the second one. I wonder if the painting had a temporal evolution and was made in more sessions.
Are there visible gun barrels or rocket rails in photos?
Regards
Massimo

In all the photos that can be seen with Nelson in them he has all the same medals in every photo with the aircraft in question. A few exceptions is when he has his harness on & it is obscuring them.

Can any one tell what they all are & is there any record of when they were received? I tend to think that all these photos are about the same time frame based off what he is wearing with his medals. I only know the HSU that can be seen in all of the photos with this aircraft.  It looks like there is 9 total that I can see it might help narrow down a time frame that maybe beneficial?

Hi Barney,
this pic shows his medals better:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/Stepanyan1944April_zps811b809e.jpg)

On this photo the dark band (outlined by red lines here) on the wing root is missing on the left side:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/Stepanyan1944April_04_zpsbd5e5408.jpg)
It is either same glossy as wing upper surface, or it is retouched, or it is not there at all, or... ???

Here blue line marks wing upper surface.
Red line marks the dark painted part of the wing leading edge, which looks quite thin here:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/Stepanyan1944April_03c_zps2f7c3850.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hero of Soviet Union (23.10.1942, 06.03.1945 (posthumously))

Awarded with two Orders of Lenin (9.06.1942, 23.10.1942), three Orders of Red Banner (24.12.1941, 21.10.1942, 26.06.1944), medals "For Defence of Odessa" (1943), "For Defence of Leningrad" (1943)

HSU golden star is on top, Orders of Lenin and Orders of the Red Banner below it, two medals (with ribbons) are bellow the orders.  I can't identify two awards to the left?

From awards I can identify, following photo was taken between 1943 (after Stepanyan received two medals) and June 1944 (before the third Order of Red Banner was awarded).

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/Stepanyan1944April_zps811b809e.jpg)

This photo (which may, or may not be taken at the same time when elaborately painted Il-2 was photographed) shows Stepanyan with the rank of a "major" (one larger star and epaulettes with two lines).  Stepanyan was a major at the time he was appointed to be a commander of 47 shap.  By summer 1944 he was promoted in the "podpolkovnik" rank and he was KIA as a podpolkovnik.  Following photo was taken after June 1944, Stepanyan has 3 orders of Red Banner and rank of a "podpolkovnik" (epaulettes with two stars each):

(http://s61.radikal.ru/i172/1303/85/48ac0c17ab89.jpg)

Photo below shows Stepanyan as a "kapitan" (epaulettes with four small stars) in 1943, before he received two medals:

(http://www.haymard.am/upload/img/pers138684343356.JPG)

It doesn't help much, the key could be the date when Stepanyan was promoted to the rank of a major.

KL

Hi Misos,
photo was retouched, white trim line has been erased, but dark band is still there for those who want to see it:

(http://airfighters.ru/step_ng9.jpg)(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Stepanyan1944April_04_zpsbd5e5408copy_zps71a469f6.jpg)

As I have pointed out many times:  cockpit canopy, canopy railings, fuselage (and its rivets) and AMT-11 "wing root band" are best displayed on following two photos:

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsona_zpsf93cbb1f.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonb_zpsa85ad49c.jpg)
  
Absolutely no doubts that the railings are darker than canopy!!!  What are you guys talking about?  Greased?  Are you joking?  Do you see any grease on Stepanyans parachute?
Absolutely no doubts that the "wing root band" is matt and same colour as canopy.  At least under the cockpit canopy.

Border between "wing root band" and dark engine cowling is quite well defined - don't you see that border line?

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/nelson_zps512c670f-colors_zps41a01583.jpg)

Dark engine cowling and dark part of wing leading edge are actually connected!  It's all quite visible...  just try to see thing how they really are:

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Hi,


sorry, but you are confusing reflections for real color borders.
The dark part close to the engine is the reflection of the dark wing and the shadow under it. The light part is the reflection of the sky. The darker part close to the wing is the reflection of the nose.
The contours are more irregular of your reconstruction.


Grease is not given in such quantity to dirten the dresses and parachutes, and eventual wastes are cleaned with a cloth. This can explain the darker and more glossy look of the rail.
I don't think it is red: putting into evidence the rail has not any aesthetical relation with the streamlined look that the painter was trying to make.

Regards
Massimo

Hi KL,
you are probably right about that darker (AMT-11) band:

I agree with Massimo about reflections on the leading edges and engine cowling:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141124-Il-2Stepanyan_02b_zps782af054.jpg)

Anyhow, here is another candidates for dark (cherry) red:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-3/yak-3360150giapyakimenko.jpg)
engine conling and fuselage star is darker than tail star. Also flag painted on the tail seems to be darker than tail star.

Preserved MiG-3 in Finnish Air Force Museum:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/finnishmuseum-AnttiLappalainen/mig3_1.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/finnishmuseum-AnttiLappalainen/mig3_12.jpg)

So yes, there are real examples of using dark red during war time. I do not know such photo of dark blue. So dark red engine cowling and wing leading edges seems to be more probable than dark blue. And in this case, if canopy railing should be different color from canopy framing, I would go with the same dark red.

So here are "dark red" alternatives:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141202_Il-2Step_color_04darkred_zps24c7d44c.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141202_Il-2Stepanyanside_04darkred_zpsea2223a0.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141202_Il-2Step_leftside_01_zpsb626502a.jpg)

I posted questions also at scalemodels.ru and airforce.ru forums yesterday morning, but untill now, almost after two days, no response :'(
Really mystery plane.
Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
first, how wing leading edge and fuselage joint usually look and where are shadows and reflections:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Ilyushin_IL-2_Sturmovik%2C_Central_Air_Force_Museum%2C_Monino.JPG/1280px-Ilyushin_IL-2_Sturmovik%2C_Central_Air_Force_Museum%2C_Monino.JPG)

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/positiveview/32326402/80500/80500_original.jpg)

Photos above clearly show where and how extensive is the wing root glare/reflection.  No need to complicate things with fuselage reflecting from wings, wings reflecting from fuselage etc.  Lines which I traced below are limits of dark colour:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/nelson_zps512c670fline_zpscf344ca9.jpg) (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/klesnikov/media/nelson_zps512c670fline_zpscf344ca9.jpg.html)


On the photo below, you arbitrarily assign dark gray colour to a sheet metal panel, although it is clear where is wing root glare and what are the limits of dark colour...

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141202_Il-2Step_color_04darkred_zps24c7d44c.jpg)

Why don't you try version I suggested?  It is actually less complex then yours, dark colour is more continuous and probably more elegant...  :D  ;)


You made some really interesting comments here:  


IMHO, it's soldier's shadow, it doesn't prove that the surface is glossy.  Band you noticed is the dark cowling colour I traced...  check my last interpretation!

It is also interesting that wing top in both photos which show frontal view looks light - is that reflection from sky, or maybe the top of the wing leading edge was light blue?
Maybe only undersurfaces of the wing leading edge were dark?  ???

Finally, I am not insisting on red for engine cowling.  IMHO, both red and dark blue are valid options:

-  Red was usually used as a "decorative" colour, it was associated with the Red Banner and the Red Star.  Also, we can't ignore the fact that on photos we are dealing with now, red stars look almost black.
-  Dark blue could be associated with the Navy(?).  Engine cowlings of some pre-war planes were dark blue.

Red, even on engine cowling should be a regular 1941-43 red.  No need for a mixed "cherry" red...  something like this would work:

(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4106/5024985043_01cfcfded8.jpg)

For dark blue I would go with something like Monino ANT-25 engine cowling:

(http://pics.livejournal.com/igor113/pic/00cz6gtd)

HTH,
KL  

Hi KL,
to be honest, I become confused :-\

Here are color photos of pre-war dark blue:
(http://pics.livejournal.com/igor113/pic/00cz6gtd)
and
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/mark-colors/tskb15.jpg)
Red looks quite similar, but the blue is apparently different. Which blue is closer to WWII era?


Non of soldiers on the ground has shadow in front of him (sun is behind photographer). Why should have it soldier on the wing? IMHO it is reflection. I agree with dark band.

Here:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_0_1646a_30eb1f1b_L.jpg)
and here:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/9-3-1.jpg)
upper wing is not so bright. IMHO it is only bright reflection from low angle. It was my first idea that upperwings were same color as fuselage, e.g. light blue AMT-7.

Even here, from the same low angle, the upperwing is apparently brighter than fuselage and it is hard matt:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140915_Ildva-mstitel_00_zps0588ea30.jpg)

Engine cowling is darker than fuselage star, which is red. So cowling should be either dark blue or dark red, not standard red as star. Plus white-outlined horizontal stripes on the wing leading edges are brighter than leaging edges. If leading edge is standard red, what is color of those stripes? Yellow?

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
Those are two different blue colors (as Massimo suggested before).  Check the following photo which shows both planes at 1936Paris Air Show:

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5632/5299263.25/0_109357_5e69bed8_XL.jpg)

TsKB-19 has relatively light engine cowling.  ANT-25 has almost black cowling.  Stepanyan's Il-2 also had almost black cowling.

ANT-25 after 1937 record flight.  This is an original 1937 color photo:

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-X3bB4nt8BCY/T9ufJj1bCqI/AAAAAAAABP8/g7YcCNJZazA/s800/6057185340_80d1562a43_o.jpg)

I wouldn't look further for dark blue colour - it's like Monino ANT-25 cowling...

Regarding the red color:  IMHO, it's more about the film sensitivity.  Film from which Stepanyan's Il-2 photos were made was too sensitive to red and on positives red appears as black.  AFAIK this was called "ortho film"  ???.

HTH,
KL

ANT-25 in 1939 when it was displayed at the World Fair in New York:

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6430/126007.8/0_79144_7475cc76_XL.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4123/126007.8/0_79145_4fd3a3a1_XL.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6443/5299263.26/0_10ab63_6d0b5a87_orig)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6723/13354011.135e/0_eb04d_f49d43d5_orig.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6723/13354011.135e/0_eb04f_20a81595_orig.jpg)

the paint is quite dark and very glossy.  Exactly what we see on Stepanyan's Il-2.
HTH,
KL

Hi,
Note that the TsKB-19 exposed in Bourget isn't the same plane of the TsKB-15 exposed in Chkalow museum.
So we don't know if its nose was blue or of another color.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,

I've received some nev images from Vitaliy. I don''t know how much they can add.
The second image is of another pilot and dated 1943.
Skopintsev-VM-Kursy-commander-of-the-Naval-Air-Force-1943

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/2.jpg)

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/Skopintsev-VM-Kursycommander-of-the-Naval-Air-Force-1943b.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Fantastic.

Looks like inner nacelle on the left has a white line & runs under the wing to fuselage same as the other photo. This cant be a jpeg compression.
No white lines on spinner at all either, this shows that the other photos were doctored.
Upper wing glossy no question.

Hi Massimo,
very nice photos. They help, at least a bit. That first photo shows that wing leading edge is going up more than on underwings. From the front it looks like whole upper wing is dark.
The second photo shows painting on the engine cowling. Plus star on the nacelle looks single-color. It looks like there were several variations of the painting.

I agree with you.

Here I tried to find some "clean" way how to connect painting on the wing leading edge with the fuselage on the sharp photo - important are only shapes here, not colors -  unfortunately before I saw pictures above, so some white lines are missing and painting on the leading edge does not reaching up on upper wings as on the photos. I made it thinner than in reality.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/80500_original_02_zps0e9aaa02.jpg)

regards,
   66misos

PS: Many thanks to Vitaliy for provided photos.

My "spasibochki" to Vitaliy, excellent photos.  We finally have a clear view of the spinner.

The most interesting aspect of two new photos is that the engine cowling isn't the darkest object - back of the spinner and 6-point spinner star are visibly darker then the engine cowling.  Contrast between the colour of cowling panels and black panel lines is also significant - on last 2 photos, cowling actually looks red, not dark blue. Back of the spinner and spinner star then could be glossy dark blue.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Stepanyan2-grayscale-DB-WLEcopy_zps9798b495.jpg)


Leading edge is definitively glossy (we new that before 2 new photos showed up!).  It is still unknown if leading edge is glossy dark blue, glossy red, or some other glossy colour.
Following is glossy red option combined with "carrot red" rectangles:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Stepanyan2-grayscale-red-WLEcopy_zps88152ae1.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Hi KL,
the spinner really looks a bit darker on these photos But I am not sure whether there different colors or it it only a matter of light conditions or picture quality or what.
It reminds me this LaGG-3 (same plane, different ocassions or films) where the stars of the same red color look very differently:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/silver71/silver71f4.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/silver71/silver71f1r.jpg)

and also this one - nose and band on the rear fuselage on the both photos are the same yellow:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/lg1/lg1-f1r.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/lg1/lg1-f3r.jpg)

I do not know whether (Soviet) WWII film material for photography had the same properties as the film material for movies and whether they gave the same or different bw results.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi all,
I'm not convinced of this. The evidence is poor, besides this white line should run under the wing leading edge and continue on the nose. We don't see this.


Again, what is the sense of the grey wingroot? The piece is gloss, this can be seen again on the photo of Skopintsev.
The blue star doesn't make sense, we have to assume that it was red. I agree that the rear part of the spinner was darker, maybe blue as from the drawings of Montex.
Note the strange thin irregular white line around the spinner. Looks made with a screwdriver, in facts it's wider around the screws.

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/3bis.jpg)

I've enlarged and darkened the wing leading edges. Here we can see  clearly that the supposed red rectangle and its white outlines continue on the leading edge, and perhaps we can see the back end of the supposed blue leading edge.
At present time my guess is for a red nose with blue spinner ring, tail and leading edges.
Regards
Massimo

Based off of this photo I would say your right.
Where did you find that one before the doctoring of the spinner star?
Can we see the original of this picture please?

Also starting to think the bands on the propellers are not paint but tape or ribbon they look 3 dimensional?

Hi Massimo,

That is called "safety wire" or "lockwire"- all screws on an airplane are secured to prevent them from loosening due to vibration.

(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv312/eebags/R1/IMG_5778.gif)

(http://blog.loosco.com/Portals/76035/images/3936712837_20e78ea3a5.jpg)

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm266/sk8rod/wheels2.jpg)

and the same wire here:

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/2.jpg)


Wire can be twisted with special pliers (not by screwdriver):

(https://www.machinemart.co.uk/images/library/product/large/04/040210330.jpg)

Long time ago I worked as a mechanic; I must have secured hundreds and hundreds of screws this way...

Regards,
KL


 

Hi Konstantin,
looks right this; I've seen it on the bolts on the wheels of tanks, but I wouldn't ever think to see around the spinner of a plane.

Hi Rodney,
here is a 1000 dpi version. The original is around 4000 dpi, but an high resolution version of a blurried image gives not advantage.

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/3r.jpg)
About the lines on the blades, I think simply that they are badly painted with brush on a white or silver background. Perhaps they fixed a brush to a wire to make circular arcs. The photo seems to confirm that the rear of the spinner is slightly darker than the star, but it's not definitive.

A detail of the painting on the left side. It gives a different impression than what I remember on other photos. Here I see a sunking ship with its deck in evidence.
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/5det.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Thank you for the pictures.

What is that blob right in the bottom left corner of the aircraft in the second photo?

I think the pilot's hands. I cropped the image to show this detail.

I think someone has more photos than they are letting us know about? ;D
What a tease if you are. ;)

Hi,
so we have nice number of photos. Some of them support each other, but unfortunately, some of them are contradictory.
nacelle stars are single-color also on these photos, no Kremlin style.
Spinner 6-point star is not "standard" Soviet 5-point star, so blue (or other than standard red) color could be acceptable.
On the left side photo the engine cowling and especially tail look darker than fuselage star of "standard" red color.
On the front-view photo above:
- the nacelle star (almost surely standard red) looks darker than spinner star,
- bright disc on the nacelle on its bottom part looks darker than light blue on the undersurface, while its top side is very bright,
- horizontal stipes on the leading edge are brighter (red?) than surrounding area (dark blue?).
The darker band (AMT-11?) is clearly visible on some photos, on others not. To be honest, I do not see any aesthetical and functional purpose of it.
Wing upper surfaces are on one retouched low quality photo very bright, on others they look same (shining from low angle) as upper fuselage.
Why should military school unit have so much non-standard pre-war dark blue?
Look at rivets/screws on the spinner tip - it looks metallic glossy.
Do you see any weapons in the wings?
Regards,
   66misos

They are the usual ugly photos already seen, only in higher resolution. I'm not hidding secrets. To be more accurate, photos of photos.

Hi,
I've received this from Vitaliy, he said that it was written in some memories.

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/stepanyan-col.jpg)

Surprising for the green, isn't it?
I think that there are tw shades of green: the frames were painted with the usual AMT-4, very faded, while the dark and glossy surfaces were made with some mix, maybe A-7 and black.
Regards
Massimo

Whose memoirs? When were those memoirs written?  Without that basic information it's a guess as good as anyone's...

What do memoirs say about wing upper surface and about the wing leading edge?  What about the spinner and its unusual 6 point star?

It would be nice to see a quote from those memoirs and to end this discussion.
Regards,
KL

At present time I have no more informations. I've asked, of course.

Hi,
dark blue or green? Under some light circumstances green can looks like blue (see well known flight photo of group of Mustangs).
However, IMHO standard green (AMT-4) would be much easier accessible than non-standard pre-war dark blue
- Upper fuselage grey or light blue? Light blue looks nicer but (blue-)grey is one of standard upper surface color, at least for fighters.
- What was standard under surface color for  Il-2 of that type and time? If "ligh" light blue A-28m, then darker light blue AMT-7 for upper surface is option. But if AMT-7 was color for under surface, then grey for upper surface would be valid option.
- The engine cowling could be red (same as our last outcome), tail is darker than star, e.g. could be dark blue same as wing leading edges, and same as band around the spinner.
- Front part of spinner could be metallic white same as bright discs on the nacelles and same as thin bright lines.
- Spinner star could be red, same as nacelle stars and stripes on the wing leading edges.
- Canopy (framing) is questionable. Pure aesthetically, I do not like "third" decorative color, but three main colors totally (light blue/grey - red - dark blue/green) plus fourth color (white/metallic white) only for details and borders. In such case I would prefer red canopy framing and dark blue railing.
- Plus, as I wrote above, I would go for the same color for upper wings as for upper fuselage.
- If tail is dark blue/green, what color are bright horizontal stripes on the ruder? Color of the fuselage (light blue/grey) or red?
- Only thing where I am completely lost is that darker band on the wing root.
Regards,
   66misos

No ill will intended on my part. I just have never seen these new photos before & was also not aware of who Vitaly is & his part with all this until the last few posts.

I would also say that what ever notes he wrote down would have to be the answers we have been looking for. Who else can second guess Vitaly  ???
I would say no one at this stage of our search.

Tail has to be a glossy dark green; that excludes AMT-4 which wasn't very dark anyway.  Such glossy dark green  paint would be as hard to find as pre-war glossy dark blue.



First two AMT paints were "protective green" AMT-4 and black AMT-6 introduced in summer 1941.  Light blue AMT-7 was introduced later in 1942 - so all planes made during the second half of 1941 and up to some (uncertain) time in 1942 had matt upper surfaces and glossy pre-war undersurfaces.  Transition from glossy to matt undersurfaces wasn't critical for VVS - they were always concerned only about the concealment of airplanes on airfields, not in the air.



I agree with your previous post:  6-point star was totally unrelated to the official 5-point Red Star and it didn't have to be red.



Photos clearly show that both canopy and wing root band have to be the same matt, colour darker than fuselage and lighter than nose/tail.



Photos show that the wing was different colour than fuselage, white or metallic silver (probably same as propeller, spinner and necelle tips).

HTH,
KL

Hi,
for what I have intended till now, the description of the plane was made by pilot  Mazurenko http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=133 (http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=133) that served in the same unit and saw the plane. The description is not contained in the linked page, I suppose it's in his memories. I'll ask for more.
I agree. Vitaliy Timoshenko (Tora on Russian forums) has provided me with a lot of images of Il-2; so I suppose he has access to many written informations too and is a reliable source.

The six-pointed star is clearly related to the usual red star. It has six points to use the simmetry of the propeller as a geometric reference, but it is nearly undistinguishable from a red star if seen from any perspective except for the frontal one.

Observing the photos from aside showing a rectangular whitish rectangle at the right wingroot, I think to see it is in slight relief I think it is a walkway made of fabric glued on a metal panel. It seems to have exactly the contour of a metallic panel on the wingroots. Probably paint adheres more on fabric than on metal surfaces.

Regards
Massimo

Massimo,
all of us who lived in socialism have to lough on these statements!
You are saying that it didn't matter 5 or 6 points, if it was a red star - kind of, any star was good if it was red.  ;D

5-point red star was an ideology symbol  - it was everywhere: on national flags, party flags, on coats of arms, in official works of art...

I don't think anybody would dare to sell a "mutant" 6-point red star as an ideology symbol.  Ridiculing an official symbol could have been dangerous too.

How many 6-point red stars have you seen on VVS planes?  IMHO, none!!!  Probably for a good reason.


Regards,
KL

Hi,
for what I remember, it is the only six-pointed one i saw. It could also be that we have seen other ones, but the difference was not visible on a photo from the side.
But I remember the 5-pointed one of Galchenko, and some photos show that it was asymmetrical, certainly due to the lack of geometric references.
Now, a 3 blade propeller gives excellent geometric reference for a 6 point star. The difference from any perspective except the front one is not visible.
A star of another color, undistinguishable from a 5 pointed one, could have been more politically dangerous. It could have suggested to some political commissar that the painter or the pilot don't love red stars.
I know that there are examples of stars of other colors: silver, but on red i-16s; or the black star of the LAGG-3 of Mironov, but it has to be intended as a red star hidden with a camo color.
And another question: how many examples we have of planes painted in similar way in wartime, maybe by the same painter? One Yak-1?
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've had an answer from Vitaliy.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thanks for the answers, special thanks to Vitaliy Timoshenko (aka Tora).  Info Vitaliy provides is valuable, but far from definitive.

Mazurenko and Stepanyan served in 57 pshap VVS KBF in 1941 and during most of 1942.  Mazurenko and Stepanyan were awarded with HSU golden stars on same day, Oct 23, 1942.  From there careers of two pilots took different directions:  Mazurenko soon became inspector with the Main Directorate of the VVS VMF and Stepanyan became an instructor.

This is where Mazurenko was in 1943 and 1944:

And this is where Stepanyan was:

From the above, Mazurenko and Stepanyan did not serve in the same unit at the time when "elabourately painted Il-2" photos were taken in autumn 1943/early 1944.  While Mazurenko remained in combat units,  Stepanyan had been far from the front and far from coasts for 1.5 year.  They were "reunited" in May 1944 when Stepanyan's 47 shap returned to Baltic.  At that time Stepanyan flew a different, combat Il-2.

Regards,
KL  

Mazurenko Aleksey Yefimovich with one HSU golden star (between Oct 1942 and Nov 1944)

(http://www.pobeda.elar.ru/images/tallinn/7-17.jpg)

maybe someone could recognize him on "elabourately painted Il-2" photos?

Maybe this UTI-4

(http://coollib.com/i/65/252665/pic_4.jpg)

Hi Konstantin,
Nice photo. It would deserve a drawing.

One of the photos of this plane, with another pilot aside it, is dated 1943. If this is right, this plane was utilized for a wide arc of time and its painting could have had an evolution that could justify, for example, the fact that the kremlin-style stars are visible on one photo only.
I agree that the informations of the pilot and mechanic are not definitive, but are a great progress anyway because we were largely guessing.
Regards
Massimo

So left & right of the hand is the wing root we can see at the very back edge of the wing? If so that is the most clear image we have of that part of the aircraft at this point in time. You mentioned the image is cropped, by any chance is there more of the wing visible in the cropped portions?

We allready knew that the plane was in service for longer period.  The plane may have been made in late 1942 and photos were made between Sept 1943 and April 1944.

Could you please check with Vitaliy when exactly was Skopintsev photographed by Stepanyan's Il-2.


With no names and dates, information is interesting, but not much more than roumors.  Fact that it is second hand (from a friend), doesn't help either; that friend could be Stankov...

Hi,
Yes, but it could also have been built in June 1943. What is interesting is when it was painted in that way.
Vitaliy writes English very few, I could ask but I think that the information is all contained in the title of the file.
Vitaliy is very well documented; if he trusts this friend, it's enough for me.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
It's likely that the plain starlets were updated to Kremlin-style stars.

To tell the truth, I'm reconsidering the possibility that the wings were grey.  The look on the photos give the idea of semigloss, but it can be that matt surfaces have some reflections when seen under a nearly tangent angle. Both Montex instructions and the sketches from Vitaliy show grey uppersurfaces and, although both have some errors, I prefer not to go in conflict without having reasons to do this.

Regards
Massimo

Massimo,
I preffer same "basic" color for all upper surfaces from the beginning. It is aesthetically cleaner.
Caption under this photo:
(http://airfighters.ru/step_ng3.jpg)
says: "Ace of assault strikes Nelson Stepanyan (left) at his "on-the-top-repainted" Il-2".

If undersurfaces were standard "light" AII Light Blue, then upper surfaces should be something darker - either darker light blue AMT-7, or even darker blue-grey AMT-11. But if undersurfaces were AMT-7, then something darker for upper surfaces, e.g. blue-grey AMT-11 could be that "grey" color mentioned by Vitaly; in this case AMT-7 also for upper surfaces is not the option.

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/stepanyan-col.jpg)
The tail same as fin (horizontal stabilizer) are significantly darker than cockpit. If they all are green, then cockpit framing could be some lighter green, e.g. standard AMT-4, while the tail, fin and canopy railing should be some darker green - same dark green as on the wheel discs?

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141208_Il-2Stepanyanleftside_02_zps3043121f.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Excuse me for suggesting something that seems so obvious that you may have overlooked it, but if you are assuming an blue-grey AMT-11 airframe, then isn't the darker colour more likely to be AMT-12 rather than any green?

No, because the darker colour is clearly glossy and AMT-12 is matt.


Blue-gray AMT-11 is the only option for Vitaliy's option.  The only problem is that on all photos fuselage looks much lighter than AMT-11.


If canopy is olive green AMT-4, then the wing root band has to be AMT-4 too.
Dark gren A-15f (colour of the wheels) is a realistic option for tail, neceles, wing leading edge and canopy railings.

HTH,
KL

Good for you!  The case is closed!!!  (http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/applause/smileys-applause-156875.gif)

Regards,
KL

So what is the pattern of the top of the wing & the transition to front leading edge around the green nacelles look like?

IMHO, top of the wing is silver "serebryanka" or white.  Wing leading edge is glossy dark green (or glossy red).

Hi,
the colorized photo from the left side should show some dark green on the leading edge. The image seems to show where the green trim ends.
Some images seem to show the contour over the nacelles, that seems slightly curved to follow the profile of them. If I don't miss, it's visible on one of the colorized photos.
Imho, the options for the wingroots are dark green or red.
Note that the image of the sanking ship on this side doesn't resemble well to the closer image, where the deck of the ship is well evident.
For what I know, A-15m is of postwar use, and not bright. The bright shade utilized on the wheels of many postwar planes is called DM green and appears on the alboom nakrasok in 1946.

A note from Vitaliy (in Russian, here is an automatic translation)


So, the photo of this pilot is taken before March 1944.

Regards
Massimo

No, you are not reading correctly...  Photo was taken between April 1943 and October 1943

I have found something similar at http://46шап.рф/north/pilots/


In 1942 sent to the 2nd Navy pilots school, where he graduated Courses for Section Commanders. At that time courses were taught by the famous ground-attack pilot, Hero of the Soviet Union Nelson Stepanyan. In October 1943, with the rank of junior lieutenant he arrived in 46 ShAP VVS SF for further service.

(http://46шап.рф/assets/images/SVM.jpg)

In November 1943, as a 46 shap pilot, Skopintsev was shot down and he managed to land his Il-2 on the frozen Krivoe lake near Murmansk.  His Il-2 was recovered few years ago

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WIdfYpQbEsI/UD8HnZo-eWI/AAAAAAAADjc/MuGQwlnEYpE/s800/5c239def5301.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Colours  is not my concern  its about the layout of the dark green leading edge where it meets the lighter colour of the top of the wing.

For example the UTI I-16 shown earlier in this thread.
Is there a design/pattern that we still cant see with all the views we have?


I'm afraid I can't see what you mean in this instance as to where the green finishes on top of the wing.

Hi,
little update:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141209_Il-2Stepanyanleftside_03_zps458e0b3e.jpg)
- red part in front of cockpit corrected,
- band bellow the cockpit changed to green AMT-4,
- part of the white disc and red star added to the nacelle,
- dark green added to wing leading edge.

That yellow part on the wing is ALG-1 primer?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WIdfYpQbEsI/UD8HnZo-eWI/AAAAAAAADjc/MuGQwlnEYpE/s800/5c239def5301.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Can you see a pattern in elements that are visible?

(http://coollib.com/i/65/252665/pic_4.jpg)

(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/pokrovskiy/yak1b-Pokrovskiy.jpg)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/stepanyan_0_1646a_30eb1f1b_L.jpg)

I would say it's a similar style, but no patterns...

Misos has colorized it just as I see it.
Just, I think that the wing root could be of the darker green because I see it gloss.
I see. More likely around October, if the grey is really AMT-11.
Regards
Massimo

According to other sources about the school and courses, Stepanyan's Il-2 could have been repainted anytime between May and September 1943.  This period of time practically excludes 1943 NKAP colours:
- blue-gray AMT-11
- dark gray AMT-12
- light brown AMT-1

You should consider something else for fuselage instead of blue-gray AMT-11.  I still believe light blue AMT-7 is a valid option.  :)

HTH,
KL

66misos, to answer your question about the recovered Il-2, that colour does appear to be ALG-1.

Regards,

Jason

Hi,


In late 1942 and 1943, AMT-7 was the color of undersurfaces. If the plane was relatively new when painted this way, I don't think that they repainted the lower surfaces. Besides, I think that the pilot and mechanic wouln't have defined it as grey.
The contrast visible on the sides of the fuselage is compatible with AMT-11. Eventually could be a mix of AMT-7 and black.

Regards
Massimo

In late 1942 AMT-7 wasn't necessarily the only colour for undersides, especially for planes with metal wings


All those references to a pilot and a mechanic memoirs/memories are baloneys.  Mazurenko (the pilot) did not have any connection with the school and he was thousands of kilometers away; he couldn't have possibly seen Stepanyan's Il-2.  Mazurenko did not leave any written memoirs, I couldn't find any interviews.  Unnamed mechanic is even less reliable/relevant.


Since pilot and mechanic said gray (not blue-gray!) it should be a mix of black and white...

Regards,
KL

Hi,
here are additional "green" views:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141210_Il-2Steprightside_03_zps847579c7.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141210_Il-2Stepfront_04_zpsf8664564.jpg)

Regarding exact color names mentioned in pilots/mechanics memoires this is from the Conversations with N. G. Golodnikov, P-39 pilot from 2 GIAP of the Northern Fleet Aviation (VVS SF), at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/golodnikov/part3.htm (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/golodnikov/part3.htm)

"...We received the first Cobras from Moscow, in containers. We assembled them and then were trained on them. These were P-39Qs, perhaps types-1 and -2, from the British order. [Apparently that should be Aircobra I ? ed.]. They had yellow (???) camouflage paint on them for North Africa..."

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
few details for front view:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141210_Il-2Stepfront_04_zpsf8664564.jpg)

1.  I would limit olive green AMT-4 to light area (form of a "hook", see one of my previous posts), the rest of that wing root panel could be glossy dark green
2.  Dark green tail along necelle should be parallel to landing gear door (your interpretation is in wrong perspective)
3.  Rear part of the spinner is dark green.
4.  6-point star is dark green, dark blue or any other dark colour except red.


I found an interesting example on a Czechoslovak forum:
When asked about La-5FN colours in 1980es, Frantishek Fajtl, a WWII pilot who flew La-5FN in 1944 answered:  "Can you remember colour of the bus you rode on 2 weeks ago?"

Regards,
KL  

Hi,
I don't understand how one can think, from these photos, that the wingroot shows anything different from reflections on a glossy surface.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg)
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/Skopintsev-VM-Kursycommander-of-the-Naval-Air-Force-1943b.jpg)
The dark lines traced on the last photos are completely arbitrary.
Besides all the added-on colors on the nose and wings are separed by white lines. Why these aren't?

Is there any white line on the wingroot of this plane? Is there any white vee on its cooler?
(http://pics.livejournal.com/igor113/pic/00cz6gtd)
Is there any white arrow on the side of this plane?
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/silver71/silver71f1r.jpg)

About the star: can you say for sure if this plane had a 5-braced or a 6-braced star? Who would put in doubt that it was red?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/il2star.jpg)

The memoirs of veterans can be right or wrong; anyway if they say to have seen the plane, it is more likely that they are right, if compared to a mere guess.
I don't think that they have answered 'How can I remember?' when someone has trascribed these colors as given from them.
How can you say that they can't have seen the plane? If they said so and were considered reliable by competent people, it should be right. How can you deny it because you didn't find any interviews?
I've received hundreds of photos from Vitaliy, many of them unpublished. How can I think that he is vaunting balloneys for informations, or that he can easily be fooled by some Munchausen?

Regards
Massimo
 

Hi,
front view with green spinner:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141211_Il-2Stepfront_05_zps5ab5b857.jpg)
Regards,
   66misos

I have to disagree with KL on the hook shape is because of a different colour & pattern. It is a shadow I think caused by the bulge on the engine cowling just behind the exhaust pipes that is directly above the wing root.  The shape of that bulge is a near perfect match for the dark green area below it. Plus the other photo showing the opposite wing has no such pattern shape similar to this photo due to painting design.

Hi Massimo + Rodney,

that darker band (which is under the white line and which is now olive green) has to end somehow under the bulge and exhausts.  Instead of pointing to reflections that we all know exist on a glossy surface, please provide your solutions...  what colour is that "hook"?  If there is no "hook" what is going on with that AMT-4 band?

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141210_Il-2Steprightside_03_zps847579c7.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20Stepanyan/141209_Il-2Stepanyanleftside_03_zps458e0b3e.jpg)

Regards,
KL

I would take the AMT-4 band like this.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/141211_Il-2Stepfront_05_zpse9ececa4.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/141211_Il-2Stepfront_05_zpse9ececa4.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/Skopintsev-VM-Kursycommander-of-the-Naval-Air-Force-1943b_zps21d324d4.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/IL-2%20STUFF/Skopintsev-VM-Kursycommander-of-the-Naval-Air-Force-1943b_zps21d324d4.jpg.html)


Excuse my attempt at painting on a PC this is out of my realm I can't contrast & shadow & so forth.

Take the bottom tip of the white line on either side of the engine cowling and blend the olive green to the paint line on the underside of the wing where the darker areas roll under the aircraft. Possibly on the second picture even wrap the olive green up & around some what of the intake? Just keep the width proportion's the same of that band on both wings.

Hi,
I have problem with that wing root band from the begining ;)

Interesting note from discussion between Vitaly and M. Bykov at airforce.ru forum - that plane could be painted, repainted, again repainted and something added a lot of time, students damaged it several time.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
I agree with the shape drawn by Rodney (whole fillet in green) but it should be not AMT-4, but glossy emerald green.
Note that there is not any white line separing it from the lower part of the wing leading edge, on which there is consensus for emerald green.
Yes, there is a white line on the upper part, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the colors were different.
The hook, being a reflection, is justified only on a gloss paint, not on matt AMT-4.
The canopy frames are likely AMT-4 because this was the factory color, and could have been retouched only to delete eventual black bands of the camouflage. 
I think I'll start to draw a profile of this plane. It will be an huge work.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
look at these photos, specifically to the part of the wing leading edge between nacelle and fuselage:

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/il2star.jpg)

Similar painting or only shining panel edges? However, I do not see all that panel lines on this photo:

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/positiveview/32326402/80500/80500_original.jpg)

Dark green band on the wing root would be elegant solution - no problems with connection of light and dark green, it would simply continue from the wing leading edge and visually sepparate wing from the fuselage. Then I have only problem with this photo, where band is either quite bright or completly missing:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelsonil21.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I think that the band of the last photo is lighter because inclined upwards and reflects the sky.
I see the lines on the plane of Emelyanenko (or Ostapenko), but I can't say what they are. The underlying painting looks still camouflaged. Maybe it's a drawing for a painting still to do?
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I received some answers from Vitaly at airforce.ru forum:
- he is confused by (spinner) green star. If they had enough red paint to paint half of the plane, there is no logic to paint spinner star green. IMHO same can be applied for dark band around the spinner.
- green is confirmed. Those guys (from interview) did not mentioned any blue color (instead of green),
- canopy and the tail is the same color on the photo, e.g. same green.
Regards
      66misos

Hi Misos,
I can believe that the canopy and the tail are both green, but certainly not the same green. I think that 'the same green' is an interpretation, not a positive information of the interview (it would discard it).
About the green star, I think that it would be good if one fights for the free use of cannabis indica, but not for the communism.
I don't know about the rear part of the spinner and for the area over the nose. Red or green?
Regards
Massimo

The discussion at AIF is quite telling:

The stress is on the fact that Vitaliy only thought that the drawing was based on memoirs....  we still haven't got basic information about the veterans and their supposed description of Stepanyan's Il-2:  what was mechanic's name, who was the interviewer, when were Mazurenko and the mechanic interviewed? ???

Did interviewer show Mazurenko and the mechanic Krilya Rodini drawing during the interview?

KL

Yes, I have to admit that green star doesn't look good.  It isn't decorative, no meaning (cannabis wasn't an issue), etc.  Dark blue star looked somewhat better, but red star definitively looks the best.  So, back to the red decorative 6-point star (no relationship to 5-point comunist red star)...  especially since Massimo produced an example of another 6-point red star!

But, the rear part of the spinner has to be darker colour than engine cowling!  Only darker colour on this plane was supposed glossy dark green (same colour as tail).
Darker (and very glossy!) rear part of the spinner is clearly visible on this photo:

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/2.jpg)

regards,
KL  

Hi Misos,
There is no new information on that discussion at the AIF.

If you search AIF archive you will find my question regarding Stepanyan's and Pokrovski's planes; the question was posted a couple of years ago by SK (Sergey Kuznitsov) but he mentions a "foreign colleague" (that would be me...).  So, I was the first who suggested that both planes belonged to a school because both Stepanyan and Pokrovski were instructors in same course in 1943.

In future, anybody who mentions how Stepanyan's and Pokrovski's planes were trainers and how planes were repainted in 1943, should also mention my name as a source.

I have now much more information about the chronology, school etc. but I don't think forum is the best place to post it.  If Massimo creates a page about Stepanyan and this plane, I could write this info, but the text has to go under my name.

Regards,
KL

Hi,
If 'trainer' means that the plane of Stepanyan had double commands, I have many doubts, unless proven, because UIL-2 already existed in 1943 and had a different canopy.
The fact that it was painted in 1943 is quite obvious, because that type was produced in the first half of 1943 (starting from November 1942) and one of the photos where it appears is dated 1943.
I have not problems to credit all sources of informations I use. Only, I don't understand this will to be the owner of an information, when it has to come from sources that usually are already available on the net.
Did you credit me for the photos received from Vitaliy that I've posted? No, not even a thanks! Should I have your same attitude, I could have kept them for myself.
Or I could pretend to be quoted as an author by anyone says that the fillet on the wings was glossy emerald green. 
Of course, this isn't my attitude, because the forum is for free discussion and to share informations and images.

Regards
Massimo

I don't see any reason to doubt that standard aircraft were in use in the schools.  It does rather depend upon just what is meant by "schools", but UIl2s could be expected in aircraft conversion training units and standard combat aircraft in operational training units.  There could well have been some overlap, depending upon availability.  Perhaps someone could write a small thesis on Soviet practice as it changed from prewar, through wartime, to the immediate postwar years?  I would expect considerable changes during this time.

Am I wrong, or they are speaking about the old drawing of Bykov?  What has this to do with the description that Vitaliy sent to me and I've posted?
The old drawing of Bykov shows a plane with green uppersurfaces and a petrol blue tail. It hasn't certainly inspired his reconstruction with grey uppersurfaces and green canopy and tail.
Anyway, Vitaliy wrote that he is researching for the name of the mechanic.


Regards
Massimo

Hi,
for now, I've made this profile.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/stepanyanprofile.jpg)
What do you think of it?
Regards
Massimo

Massimo,
Nice picture. IMHO white line between red and green follows panel line. Also, IMHO, green under the horizontal stabiliser should cover all plate, not going up like on your picture.
I am not sure about canopy railing, may be to make it a bit dirty to distinguish the darker color.
Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
about the white line, I am pretty sure that it is lower than the fillet upper line, at least on the rear part. I can check the front part.
About the green on the tail, I think that the stabilizers have only their front painted green, unlike the fin. Unfortunately I can't see well under the stabilizers, but, should I be the painter, I would avoid to go on the ground to paint a decoration.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
of course, I meant only front part of the white line, on the engine cover, I was not specific enough:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/IL-2%20STUFF/nelson_zps512c670f.jpg)
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/positiveview/32326402/80500/80500_original.jpg)

IMHO whole horizontal stabilizer was painted dark green:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/stepanyan-col.jpg)
May be there were also grey stripes on the moving part like on the rudder. Grey would be much brighter, something like the top of fuselage.
Plus that tiny part on the top of tail (I do know English word) together with the top of the tail seems to be also dark green.

Dark green on the side of the nacelle under the wing goes further to back, behind wheel doors.

And as I already wrote, may be it would be good to make the canopy railing a bit dirty (if not dark green) to distinguish its darker color.

I am not sure about dark band around the spinner. On some photos it seems to be darker than engine cover, on others seems to be the same color. I think red color would make whole front part of the plane visually cleaner. But it is only my guess.


Btw, look at this photo - that engine cover/protection with the cord looks like inspiration for painting on Stepanyan's plane :)
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2m-winter.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos

I would say you have the most accurate profile of this IL-2 too date.

Well done.

Hi,
you're right, I've modified the drawing.
I see a light part (reflectionof the sky), a dark part (green reflecting the fin) and a light part that is too forward to be a reflection of the grey part of the stabilizer; I think that it's a grey surface. I can check again the starting and ending point.
I can't say if there are green stripes here too. Perhaps the stabilizers resemble more to the wings that to the fin.
Again, photo doesn't help to see where the dark green ends under the stabilizer. I have supposed that it was a difficult part to paint, so they left as it was.
somewhat longer, up to the center of the retracted wheen, i think to see... but the light rectangle over it is a rocket rail or the side of the nacelle?
Yes, it resembles a lot.
I hope so... it was discossed so long, and is requiring a lot of work.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
some notes from Vitaliy:

an automatic translation (adapted):

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
a little correction in your mail above:
"...рисунок (внизу) сделал Михаил Быков, он и на ВИФе это подтвердил что рисовал его с плохих фотографий."
Picture (bellow) was drawn by Mikhail Bykov, he also confirmed at ВИФ (not wife, but Voenno-istoricheskiy Forum = War-Historical Forum at airforce.ru, where I posted my questions on Dec 1st, 2014), that he drew that picture according to the low-quality photographs.

Unless there appear new better photographs, I have no problems with your interpretation of the horizontal stabilizer painting.

regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos, I see. I was just wondering if he drew profiles aside his wife.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I am wondering if Bykov's wife interviewed the veterans???

Regards,
KL

No wife, nor interview, it seems.
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,
another example of 6-braced red star on a spinner:
[IMG SRC=http://f3.s.qip.ru/01mV5P.jpg] (http://shot.qip.ru/0024Ai-301mV5P/)
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,
I've made this reconstruction of Stepanyan's plane.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m/stepanyan/stepanyandrawing.jpg)
Does it seem good?

Regards
Massimo

Very good.
Without a photo of the upper surfaces it is a best guess as to what it was like.
I think it is very accurate for what we have in hand at present.

Hi Rodney,
I agree, there is some (a lot of) guessing particularly on the uppersurfaces and tail. The green rear of the spinner is dubious too.
I think I'll turn the sea to a less green shade.
there is still some detail to correct, as the machine gun.
I'm working on a small page collecting some of the informations emerged from the discussion. I'll upload it soon.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
very nice picture!
I would like to add some notes:
1. machine gun should be removed from the rear cockpit in the top view,
2. canopy framing in the top view should be painted green,
3. stripes on the probeller blades should not have the same width. Outer one should be thinner than inner one.
4. very top of the tail should be also green,
5. IMHO bottom red on the front fuselage and green on the bottom wing leading edge should meet in one point (note front view - you have the red one higher than green),
6. green stripe on the wing root cover longer/wider part of the wing trailing edge in the side view (IMHO correct) than in the top view (IMHO incorrect),
7. IMHO red on the top front fuselage does not create a "tip" directly in front of the windshield, but should be aligned to the framing on the windsield, analogically to anti-glare painting. In such way it would create visually more homogenous suface fom the pilot perspective.
8. It is onle my feeling but painting on the top horizontal stabilizer looks strange from me. Probably whole fix part should/could be green.
Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
I've seen your list just now that I'm uploading a page on this plane and his pilot. Thank you, it shows a very careful exam of the drawing.
I've already made some corrections on the drawing, while other ones are still to make.
I don't know about your interpretation of the red part over the nose. Photos are not clear, but I think that it ends in a point as on the sides. The curve, when visible, is too far from the windshield to suggest that it goes to the frame instead of the central line.
About the tail, I've enclosed an enlarged detail in my page where the green over the stabilizer looks as I've drawn it, not arriving to the hinge line.
I've unpload a page on it at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m/stepanyan/stepanyan.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m/stepanyan/stepanyan.html). Please, have a look.
If you find further corrections to the drawing or to the text (merged from many pages) please let me know.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've updated the drawing and the page. Please, let me know any impression.
Regards
Massimo

I'll have to correct the flag of the navy in the painting, it should have both hammer and sickle and a red star on it.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I have only one note regarding flag in the right-side painting.
Whole white flag has soft edges while light blue stripe is sharp(-er) and seems going off the flag on the left and right side. It is too evident that it is added there. May be to slightly erase egdes and mainly left and right end of the stripe (to align it with the flag) with "soft-edge rubber" could help.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I see, it's from the photo, after a perspectical correction. Probably the original is somewhat naif, it should be fully redrawn. I know it's a rough image, now I've reduced them a bit to make the thing less evident.
Regards
Massimo

Shame Photobucket ruined this thread.
Found another image.

(http://i68.tinypic.com/e7nmti.jpg)