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Searching for VVS Photos
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Author Topic: Searching for VVS Photos  (Read 332632 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #705 on: February 24, 2021, 05:32:05 PM »

Hi Psy,
thank you for the photos and the link. The museum seems big, with some wartime planes too. Were the MiG-3, Yak-3, Il-2 assembled from wrecks?
Is it a new museum? I haven't heard of it before.

Hi Daniele, you've arrived just right for this topic. The fragment of the bomber is vey interesting, I wonder if the underlying grey paint was the finish of 1937 and was later repainted to a 1938/39 standard. In this case, the use of yellow primer is somewhat surprising for me.  In alternative, it could be a grey plane of early 1940 repainted silver to match the other planes in the same unit.
Thank you for the translation of the painting  manual. The note about three layers of trasparent paint over the pigmented one on wood/fabric areas could explain why such surfaces seem so different from metal parts on photos of 1941.


Regards
Massimo


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Psy06
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« Reply #706 on: February 24, 2021, 06:02:01 PM »

I must apologize, I misled you. The first example of a photo where I said that the SB was externally unpainted, I was mistaken. Now I have reviewed the entire shooting archive to which this photo belonged, this plane actually has traces of external painting. It seems that all the real facts about the existence of serial SBs that are not painted outside should be double checked. If all the early SBs before the "era of light gray paint" were actually painted with silver paint, a lot changes. BTW, this plane was produced in 1936.

Quote
I suppose that it is a piece from a bomber, and maybe our Russian friends could tell if it comes from a SB or a DB-3.

It's very difficult to say what it is. This is certainly from a bomber. Both SB and DB-3 were painted with light gray paint and silver. Both have double-row seams, and both use this type of profile.

This is SB, wing part.
 


Quote
The museum seems big, with some wartime planes too. Were the MiG-3, Yak-3, Il-2 assembled from wrecks?
Is it a new museum? I haven't heard of it before.

They have a whole armored train there Smiley This museum appeared in the 21st century, so in principle it can be considered as new.
They have a lot of both maquette and exhibits made using fragments of real things, mainly for aircraft. The Yak-3 is completely real, he used to stand in a Zadorozhny Museum, but when Golovatov's Yak was brought there, the old one was floated to Pyshma.  If my memory serves me, they did the same with the Hurriccanes, In Zadorozhny they left a prestigious one, some Ace, and in Pyshma they fused a noname one. I have no information about Il-2 and MiG-3.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 06:44:47 PM by Psy06 » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #707 on: February 24, 2021, 08:53:01 PM »

Hi Psy,
thank you for this further information. Have you identified the colors? The image shows a very multichromatic piece.
It would be good to know more on their exhibits, I think to have read 'Pe-2' somewhere. Besides there was an I-16 outside.

I am worried for the preservation of the planes or replicas in open air.

Regards
Massimo
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Psy06
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« Reply #708 on: February 25, 2021, 09:55:25 AM »

Have you identified the colors? The image shows a very multichromatic piece.
This is the funniest thing, until last night I thought that he was unpainted. But other photos showed parts of the outer skin with a green primer. Maybe there is some surviving paint, but it is so merged with the aluminum that it is simply not visible. Silver paint, if you know, corrodes very strongly, it looks beautiful only if it has been carefully preserved. The swamp piece just looks... like a corroded piece of aluminum.

It would be good to know more on their exhibits, I think to have read 'Pe-2' somewhere. Besides there was an I-16 outside.
Pe-2 real too, with large new made pieces (not accurate ) I helped with arhive material in its restoring and SB too.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #709 on: February 26, 2021, 07:30:45 AM »

Hi Psy,
I'll look for photos of that Pe-2.

I've found a photo of an interesting exhibit relaive to a La-5 piece of wing in the Moscow museum here:
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/does-anyone-know-if-there-are-and-remaining-la-5s-la5fs-or-la-5fns-left.55531/#post-1621545
I wasn't aware of that piece, and I remember the ancient discussions about the brown glue.

Regards
Massimo
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Psy06
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« Reply #710 on: February 26, 2021, 08:27:35 PM »

I wasn't aware of that piece, and I remember the ancient discussions about the brown glue.

It's not brown, just distortion in a cheap camera. This is the same glue as in La-7. And this is the same color of the prototype I-301, and the wooden parts of the I-16
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #711 on: February 26, 2021, 09:59:41 PM »

If it's not brown glue VIAM B-3, what else is it?

To tell the truth, I've never seen that finish on any photo of I-16, never in building or wrecks. The inside of the fuselage of MiG-3 in Finland is made of wood, but the shade of the glue is much lighter.

For what I know, the delta wood was peculiar of Lavockins and was not the same method of other planes.

Regards
Massimo
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warhawk
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« Reply #712 on: February 27, 2021, 09:49:40 PM »

Some very interesting cammo going on on this Mig-3 (supposedly of 25th IAP, Sumgait Airport)






Source: Forums Kuban
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #713 on: February 28, 2021, 07:32:17 AM »

Very interesting, thank you for sharing it.
The plane is a prewar-built one with gloss green livery. The background and the dresses of the crew suggest not a winter temporary camouflage, but a summer one, so I suppose that the blotches are of some shade of beige.
I can guess that there is some one-digit number (or two digits, but hardly above 10 or 15) on the rudder, possibly coloured as on prewar style.
One photo seems to show a lighter area around the cockpit, while other photos don't; I suppose that a retouch with matt green paint on a worn surface could explain this.
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warhawk
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« Reply #714 on: February 28, 2021, 09:29:45 AM »

You're welcome.
I believe I can see a near vertical Green/Black (or matt Green / Gloss Green?) cammo demarcation line on the second photo (immediately behind the spinner).
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #715 on: February 28, 2021, 12:31:25 PM »

It is possible, but it could be a retouch with fresh green paint, it doesn't continue on the upper panel, and it is strange that the prop blades weren't repainted black. Or maybe it was a panel from another plane that was camouflaged.
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righidan
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« Reply #716 on: March 04, 2021, 11:00:10 AM »

Dear Friends,
   I have to thank Mr. Linevitch for his answer about the fragment of which I posted two photos.
   Of course I could measure the rivet diameter, the distance among the rivets and so on, but I doubt that it will make possible to be more precise.
   At this point I believe that this fragment can be described as: A relic from a Russian metal bomber, probably from a wing, around 1941.
   For the benefit of our non-Russian speaking members, I enclose my own summary about the SB colours, taken from the excellent book of Mr. Maslov:

"the first ANT-40 prototypes were not painted and this very fact turned out to have its positive side. For instance, during State testing held in February 1936 it was emphasized: "Due to its paint coating (it would have been more proper to say, due to the lack of it - author's note), the SB is well camouflaged against snow-covered ground and on cloudy backgrounds, impeding the fighters ability to spot it and also making it difficult to observe from the ground."   The first series of the 1936 pattern were not painted either"
"from 1937 the SBs manufactured by Aircraft Factory No. 22 were painted with light-grey oleoresin enamel which, after some improvements, was designated AE-9"
"During 1938 - factory reports state that during the previous year -the SBs have been painted with aluminum silver paint instead of the enamel used earlier-. The silver paint referred to was AE-8 enamel"
"SB 2 M-103, c/n 13/221, was thoroughly coated with two layers of light-grey AE-9 enamel, with the leading edges of the wing and tail unit being polished afterwards. Later this technique was used not only on the prototypes but also on series production airplanes through mid-1940"
"In May 1940 a Decree of the USSR State Defense Committee ordered all military aircraft to be camouflaged green on top, blue underneath. Starting in July 1940 aircraft produced by Factory No. 22 were painted in those colors. Aircraft Factory No. 125, based in Irkutsk, began to roll out camouflaged SBs on 9 August 1940, starting with airplane c/n 47/ll. Thus, 195 airplanes were camouflaged in 1940 and 168 airplanes in 1941, i.e. a total of 363 aircraft"

   About the internal colours of the Russian planes of the thirties and early forties, some time ago a document surfaced in Scalemodels.ru in a thread on the I-16.
   As I have been unable to be sure about the headings, I just add a translation of the text:
HEADING

   A survey of the Red Army Air Force GU of the state of the paint of aircraft produced by NCAP factories found:
   1. On aircraft manufactured by industry, there is a variety of colors of internal parts of different designs. Motor frames, welded steel frames of the fuselage, the wooden frame of the wings, the inner surface of the wooden fuselage, the covering of the wings etc. in some cases, they are varnished, while others are painted with enamels of equal colors and shades.
   In this regard, the paint industry is loaded with adjustment of paint colors, as a result of which it delays the manufacturing of products.
   Air Force warehouses and aircraft repair shops are forced to load with paints of different colors and shades.
   The presence of such diversity in the range of applied paint materials is determined solely by the aesthetic tastes of employees of the factories.
   2. In the system of NCAP was led by a single approved and required for plants technologies color planes.
   The factory uses technologies and paint materials for painting the same aircraft units according to its own requirements.
   3. Instructions for painting various structural materials in aircraft construction, developed by VIAM, are not mandatory for NCAP plants and plants use them at will.
   4. Changing the technology of serial painting, as well as the use of experimental painting of aircraft or units in some cases, and even in a large number of cases, without the approval of the second issue with the Research Institute of the Red Army Air Force.
   In order to eliminate the above disadvantages, I suggest you:
   1. Urgently make for approval the Chief of the 14th Department of the NII VVS KA, a military engineer of the 1st rank, Comrade ZAKORUKOVA, the technology used at the plant for painting materials and aircraft.
   2. Upon receipt by you of a conclusion from the 14th department of the Research Institute of the Air Force KA on the painting technology or a unified technology on this issue agreed by the NKAP with the NII VVS KA, do not allow further changes at the plant, as well as the experimental painting of aircraft without agreement of the NII VVS of the Red Army.
   The execution of sending the technology to the NII VVS KA shall be carried out by 25.3.41.

                  (Signatures)
Date: 11.2.1941

   What I get from this document, is that we can expect to find different colours in the interior of different planes from the pre-war and early war period.
Regards
Daniele
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Daniele
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #717 on: March 04, 2021, 01:17:31 PM »

Hi Daniele,
thank you for your research of proper text to translate.

The second one is particularly interesting because it fully justifies the great disparity in the images and fragmental exhibits available related to the late '30s and the beginning of the war.
I am considering to insert a section with translations of documents in the main site, so they remain easily available for who needs to read them.

Regards
Massimo
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Psy06
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« Reply #718 on: March 04, 2021, 02:34:38 PM »

 The first series of the 1936 pattern were not painted either
Daniel, the plane about which I said that it was not painted, and then it turned out that I was mistaken, was released in 1936. Apparently, its external paint exactly is silver. And due to severe corrosion, areas with paint are especially invisible, because they merge with parts where the paint has already been washed off. There are traces of zinc-chromate primer on the airframe.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 02:57:13 PM by Psy06 » Logged
righidan
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« Reply #719 on: March 04, 2021, 04:32:20 PM »

Dmitry,
   Thank you for the beautiful photos and the new information.
   Mr. Maslov book is of 16 years ago, and research is always evolving, I would say that at this point we have these facts:
- From archeological evidence, we have a SB produced in 1936, that was primed with zinc chromate and painted with silver aluminum paint.
- From archeological evidence we have a Russian metal bomber that was originally painted with light gray paint, that was subsequently overpainted with silver aluminum paint.
- From documents, we have that the first ANT-40 prototypes were not painted.
- At the moment we lack archeological evidence or documents proving that serial SB were not painted.
   I hope to have summarized the facts correctly.
   I understand that there are a few samples of light gray painted planes with the interior in steel gray.
   I seem to understand that other SB interiors can be found or left unpainted, or covered with a transparent varnish, but I would like to be assured that I understood well.
   I would be very curious to know a date for the crash of each plane, but I suppose that I am pretending too much.
   To have an idea of how it is possible to make an excellent restoration of an historical plane, you can Google "Restaurer-les-avions-de-musee" to see the wonderful Yak-3 of Le Bourget, that recently has been repainted on the left side, while the right side is showing the various paints and insignia used during its career.
Regards
Daniele
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Daniele
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